Paths of the Dead

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Balin
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Paths of the Dead

Post by Balin » Thu May 21, 2009 12:06 pm

Playable only at the end of the organization phase. For its movement, a company that starts at the Dunharrow site and contains Aragorn II may move to the Vale of Erech site. The only hazard creatures that may be played on this company are Undead, but any Undead may be played on the company.
I've been told that some GCCG players are using this card as a sort of Stealth to prevent the playing of any hazard creatures but undead, regardless if the company starts at Dunharrow or not. I know it sounds quite bizarre but... could it be right??

Thanks in advance.
__

Let them come! There is one dwarf yet in Moria that still draws breath!

marcos
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Post by marcos » Thu May 21, 2009 12:21 pm

that is not correct, the "stealth" effect of this card is only applied if you do the special movement.

best regards!

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Thu May 21, 2009 1:02 pm

The way I read the card, it's a company that starts at Vale of Erech and contains Aragorn II that benefits. But they don't necessarily have to use the movement.

marcos
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Post by marcos » Thu May 21, 2009 1:05 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:The way I read the card, it's a company that starts at Vale of Erech and contains Aragorn II that benefits. But they don't necessarily have to use the movement.
i guess you mean dunharrow :)

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu May 21, 2009 4:23 pm

Thread's title is Paths of the Dead so I hope that it will not be off-topic.
Paths of the Dead wrote:Playable only at the end of the organization phase. For its movement, a company that starts at the Dunharrow site and contains Aragorn II may move to the Vale of Erech site. The only hazard creatures that may be played on this company are Undead, but any Undead may be played on the company.
Eagle-mounts wrote:Playable only at the end of the organization phase on a company with a diplomat that begins the turn at Eagles' Eyrie. Company may move to any site that is not a Shadow-hold [S] or a Dark-hold [D]. Opponent may only play hazard creatures that are keyed to the company's site.
Underlines mine.

Are not underlined texts similar? In both cards words "may move" are used, but AFAIK in case the Eagle-mounts special movement is not considered option. It is mandatory.

Of course someone can say that Paths of The Dead does not contain phrase "Playable... on company..." and it is a key difference.
Really? Is not "a company that starts at the Dunharrow site and contains Aragorn II" specified by number and type entity that gains some ability (special movement) as effect of Paths? So is not the company target of Paths?
Is this phrase preceded by "if" that would suggest that it is an effect that happens only if such company is at Dunharrow?
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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Thu May 21, 2009 6:19 pm

Eagle-Mounts movement is not mandatory, so far as I know, since it does not specify a moving company -- you could play Eagle Mounts and stay at Eagle's Eyrie and your opponent would only be able to play hazard creatures that are keyed to the company's site. Eagle-Mounts prevents movement to certain sites and permits movement to others, but does not force movement at all.

marcos: :oops: Dunharrow, yes.

Paths of the Dead refers to a company that starts at Dunharrow and contains Aragorn II. This company may move to Vale of Erech, but they do not have to. Either way, only Undead may be played against them.

For Paths of the Dead to target the company, there must be an action. We can flip a coin to determine whether "may move to Vale of Erech" or "the only hazard creatures that may be played" are actions or not. ;)

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Nerdmeetsyou
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Thu May 21, 2009 7:44 pm

Maybe the council could make a statment on this, as soon as it is elected...

I also have heared this ridiciulous interpretation of the card!
And there should be a ruling for this!!!

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu May 21, 2009 8:12 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:Eagle-Mounts movement is not mandatory, so far as I know, since it does not specify a moving company -- you could play Eagle Mounts and stay at Eagle's Eyrie and your opponent would only be able to play hazard creatures that are keyed to the company's site. Eagle-Mounts prevents movement to certain sites and permits movement to others, but does not force movement at all.

marcos: :oops: Dunharrow, yes.

Paths of the Dead refers to a company that starts at Dunharrow and contains Aragorn II. This company may move to Vale of Erech, but they do not have to. Either way, only Undead may be played against them.

For Paths of the Dead to target the company, there must be an action. We can flip a coin to determine whether "may move to Vale of Erech" or "the only hazard creatures that may be played" are actions or not. ;)
Action (that has a target) may be just a playing card. Effect of the card does not need be action. Example: Tookish Blood (second use) - effect of this card is not action of course, but card itself has the target.

It is interesting why both Paths of the Dead and Eagle-mounts (and Belegaer, and Hiding) are playable at the end of organization phase, not just in organization phase. Is not end of org. phase a moment when new site is decided, or when it is decided that company does not move? If posibility of special movement would be only option, why it must be played so late?
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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Thu May 21, 2009 8:18 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:Action (that has a target) may be just a playing card. Effect of the card does not need be action. Example: Tookish Blood (second use) - effect of this card is not action of course, but card itself has the target.
The definition of a target is an entity through which an action is played out. There is only one entity through which card play is played out -- the card itself.
It is interesting why both Paths of the Dead and Eagle-mounts (and Belegaer, and Hiding) are playable at the end of organization phase, not just in organization phase. Is not end of org. phase a moment when new site is decided, or when it is decided that company does not move?
Not my knowledge; you can put down new sites for you companies at any time during the organization phase. However, these cards all being playable at the end of the org phase prevent company shuffling afterward.

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Thu May 21, 2009 8:19 pm

BoderHamster wrote:Maybe the council could make a statment on this, as soon as it is elected...

I also have heared this ridiciulous interpretation of the card!
And there should be a ruling for this!!!
Good luck on that one, but I'm pretty sure that Many-Coloured Robes will have first claim. ;)

Actually, it's not the interpretation of the card. It's what the card actually says. Interpretation would be to limit the card according to an assumed intent.

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Nerdmeetsyou
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Thu May 21, 2009 8:28 pm

yeah but in some games the card doesn not say what it is intended to do...
(but in most cases obviously should do!)
mostly because of an error in playtesting and wording.
Then there is needed a clarification... or errata!

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu May 21, 2009 9:08 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:
Konrad Klar wrote:Action (that has a target) may be just a playing card. Effect of the card does not need be action. Example: Tookish Blood (second use) - effect of this card is not action of course, but card itself has the target.
The definition of a target is an entity through which an action is played out. There is only one entity through which card play is played out -- the card itself.
Card is played out by itself? So from now long-events have a targets!
Even best definition may be sometimes helpless against interpretation.

Added:

To be clear: I'm convinced that Tookish Blood is played only through hobbit (in both uses).
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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Fri May 22, 2009 12:13 am

Nope: Card play never specifies by number and type. ;)

Tookish Blood: The first use is obvious that it targets the hobbit. The second use only targets because of card text overriding rules. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Fri May 22, 2009 1:19 am

Bandobras Took wrote:Nope: Card play never specifies by number and type. ;)

Tookish Blood: The first use is obvious that it targets the hobbit. The second use only targets because of card text overriding rules. :)
Use it as feed for your word-game or interpret it as you want.
CRF, Rulings by Term, Active Conditions wrote:If an "alternative" or "additional" effect does not have any "playable ..." conditions,
then the "playable on ..." conditions from the primary effect of the card apply. The
following cards are exceptions to this rule:
• Gloom
• Good Sense Revolts
• Half an Eye Open
• Heedless Revelry
• Here is a Snake
• In the Name of Mordor
• Inner Cunning
• Nobody's Friend
• Withdrawn to Mordor
• Wolf-riders
See also Rulings by Term, Targets.
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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Fri May 22, 2009 3:38 am

A target is a playability condition. A playability condition is not necessarily a target.
Tookish Blood wrote:Playable on a Hobbit character. The Hobbit's player must make a roll (or draw a #); return the Hobbit to the player's hand if the result plus his unused general influence is less then 11. If the Hobbit is removed from play, one of his items may be transferred to another character in his company; any other cards under his control are discarded. Alternatively, this card can be played as a resource card. For the rest of the turn, the target Hobbit cannot be discarded or returned to its owner's hand for any reason.
The second use states that it targets the Hobbit, and therefore overrides any normal targeting rules. [-me_wh-] (I'm going to have use that emoticon more often. No clue what it means. :) )

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