Council of Elrond

Or rather some less discussed pecularities of minion/hero sites converted to Wizardhavens.

The White Hand, Playing and Using Resources wrote:Playing Resources at a Site—In order to play a non-Fallen-wizard resource that would normally tap a site, either the site and the resource to be played must both be hero cards or they must both be minion cards. For these purposes, a Fallen-wizard site card (or any Wizardhaven) is both a hero site and a minion site.

However resources played at a site does not target the site. AFAIK nowhere in rules is stated that Wizardhavens are both a hero site and a minion site for purpose of targeting. Sometimes I see that players plays the Hall of Fire on Wizardhaven build on base of minion card. Is it legal? If so where is justification for such play?

Hall of Fire wrote:Playable on a Haven. Any company at this Haven immediately following its movement/hazard phase may choose for one of its characters to untap or heal (from wounded to tapped). Discard Hall of Fire when the site card is returned to the location deck.

To determine the target of a card, you ask what the action is. Hall of Fire is playable on a haven, but does not perform an action on that haven. The only action of Hall of Fire is to untap a character. Therefore, Hall of Fire only targets the character, not the site it is played on.

TARGETING SITE AND RESOURCE CARDS - A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card. A minion resource card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.

Does it affect the site?

That one's iffy, but I'd say it affects the company.

However, we run into another difficulty:

Action: Untap.
Number and Type: A Character

Hall of Fire does target the character it untaps. It cannot be used to untap an Orc or Troll character.

A hero resource may not target an Orc or Troll character (e.g. Orc and Troll characters may not use Block, Escape, etc.).

It seems like people have been playing it wrong for years. Including me.

Your and mine understanding of term "target" differs significantly.

Maybe we are accordant at least in one question. Target is one of active conditions (condition of declaring and resolving an action). Right?

If you agree here: which company at haven site is condition for Hall of Fire?
If there is no company at haven (e.g. company is moving to, or from haven) Hall of Fire cannot be played?

How about:

CRF, Rulings by Term, Targets wrote:A card that is played on a card continuously targets the card it is on.

?

EDIT:
Changed: "condition of taking action" to "condition of declaring and resolving an action".

Konrad Klar wrote:How about:

CRF, Rulings by Term, Targets wrote:A card that is played on a card continuously targets the card it is on.

Nice catch.

I take my definition from the start of the CRF entry:

A target is an entity that an action is played out through. Enitities are only targets of an action if the action specifies those entities by number and type. Note that "the foo" counts as specifying one "foo."

That definition and the other differ significantly, which establishes what we all already knew, that ICE was fairly inconsistent in their definitions of crucial game concepts (I still can't find two people who have the same concept of "action").

However, to return to the question at hand, there's no flaw in your reasoning. Hall of Fire cannot be played on anything but a hero site that has been turned into a wizardhaven through stage resources. Wizardhaven cards are not innately hero or minion, and are only considered such for the purposes of playing cards which normally tap the site.

Think anybody will throw a fit over this?

I think Brian will, since this was his only hope of winning Nats.

Did Brian have a hope of winning the Nats?

Hall of Fire wrote:Playable on a Haven. Any company at this Haven immediately following its movement/hazard phase may choose for one of its characters to untap or heal (from wounded to tapped). Discard Hall of Fire when the site card is returned to the location deck.

CRF wrote:A target is an entity that an action is played out through. Enitities are only targets of an action if the action specifies those entities by number and type. Note that "the foo" counts as specifying one "foo."

Frodo wrote:I think Brian will, since this was his only hope of winning Nats.

Jambo wrote:Did Brian have a hope of winning the Nats?

Now onto what people percieve is incorrect play.

A target is an entity that an action is played out through. In this case it's a company. Hall of Fire states "Any company at this Haven immediately following its movement/hazard phase may choose for one of it's . . ." So what we have here is Hall of Fire "targeting" a company for that company to choose a character in it's company to untap.

However according to CRF Ben pointed out:
"Enitities are only targets of an action if the action specifies those entities by number and type. Note that "the foo" counts as specifying one "foo."

So the entity here is a company. However a number of companies is never defined. It says ANY company. Therefore the company is NOT a target. So the action can be played out on a company and does not target the company.

Cheesey yes. Within the rules yes. Rules Lawyer 101

But the action is "played out" through the character untapping as well. I am sure we can't stop at the word "company" and say that is the only entity. Otherwise, why not stop at "playable on a site," and say that the site is the only entity?

Btw, is there a precedent for "entity" being defined?

--Frodo

Sauron wrote:However according to CRF Ben pointed out:
"Enitities are only targets of an action if the action specifies those entities by number and type. Note that "the foo" counts as specifying one "foo."

So the entity here is a company. However a number of companies is never defined. It says ANY company. Therefore the company is NOT a target. So the action can be played out on a company and does not target the company.

You don't untap the company. Therefore the company is not the entity through which the untap action is played out. The company is the entity through which the choice action is played out.

Rules Lawyer 101

Rules Lawyer 102.

Bandobras Took wrote:

Sauron wrote:However according to CRF Ben pointed out:
"Enitities are only targets of an action if the action specifies those entities by number and type. Note that "the foo" counts as specifying one "foo."

So the entity here is a company. However a number of companies is never defined. It says ANY company. Therefore the company is NOT a target. So the action can be played out on a company and does not target the company.

You don't untap the company. Therefore the company is not the entity through which the untap action is played out. The company is the entity through which the choice action is played out.

Rules Lawyer 101

Rules Lawyer 102.

No I don't untap the company. I choose a character in my company to untap.

The problem is you're defining it as 2 actions, and I define it as 1 action.

ICE never defined what an action really is.

I define it as 1 action because it's 1 complete sentence.

Yep.

Put another way, the company chooses, but it's still Hall of Fire that untaps the character, not the company.

True + False = False still

Konrad Klar wrote:However resources played at a site does not target the site. AFAIK nowhere in rules is stated that Wizardhavens are both a hero site and a minion site for purpose of targeting. Sometimes I see that players plays the Hall of Fire on Wizardhaven build on base of minion card. Is it legal? If so where is justification for such play?

TARGETING SITE AND RESOURCE CARDS - A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card. A minion resource card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.

PS: Split Hall of Fire to here:

http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... 0876#10876

As far as what sites you can play Hall of Fire on:

TARGETING SITE AND RESOURCE CARDS - A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card. A minion resource card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.

So long as the site is not minion (i.e. base hero or Wizardhaven card), I believe Hall of Fire can be played on the site. I said earlier that it would only be hero sites, but I was incorrect.