Enduring Tales vs Faction Play

[Bandobras Took]

BRINGING A FACTION INTO PLAY
In order to play a faction card, you must tap one of your characters that is at the “site” indicated on the faction’s card. Then you must make an influence check. Make a roll (2D6), add your character’s unused direct influence, and add any appropriate modifications (any applicable standard modifications from the faction card and from any other cards played). All influence check modifier cards must be played before making the roll (2D6).
If the modified result is greater than the value required on the faction card, you place the faction in your marshalling point pile (it now counts towards your marshalling point total). Otherwise, you discard the faction card. Once a faction is brought into play, it is not controlled by any specific character and it does not count against general or direct influence.

Factions
If one of your characters is at the site specified on a faction card, he may tap during the site phase to attempt an influence check in order to play the faction card. If the character successfully influences the faction as indicated on the faction’s card (see p. 38-39), the faction card is placed in your play area. After a faction is successfully played at a site, the site card is tapped.

When any player discards a card from his hand, he may discard it to the top of his play deck (and always face down) instead of to his discard pile.

As I understand it, then, if the influence check does not succeed, the faction is discarded from my hand (since you only play the faction if the influence check succeeds), and Enduring Tales kicks in, placing the faction on top of my play deck. Is this correct, or is there a rule I'm forgetting?

[Konrad Klar]

That question would sound also: are revealed cards considered as cards on hand?

Unless you are supposing the factions (preasumably also items, allies), are not revealed until successfully played.

[Bandobras Took]

I can find no indication that you need reveal the faction, actually. You tap the character and make the roll, add the modifiers, and you may play the faction if the result is greater. Do you at any point have to tell your opponent what faction you are attempting to play?

[Konrad Klar]

Do you at any point have to tell your opponent what faction you are attempting to play?

...and which faction should be discarded if attempt fails?
How about situation where two factions are playable at site and one of them is under control of your opponent? If your opponent does not know which faction you are attempting to play how to determine validity of playing Wizard's Laughter in response? Does it target influence attempt against it's player faction or no?


Ok. It may be considered only as presumptive evidence but I have checked CRF for occurance of phrase "successfully".

"Normally, when you successfully play an item, faction, ally, or information at a site, the site card is tapped and one additional character may tap to play a minor item."

or

'Replace "as a minor item" with "in addition to an ally or faction which
has been successfully been played at Wellinghall."'

If faction can be successfully played, it may* mean that it also may be unsuccessfully played. Unsuccessfully played means that process of bringing card into play has been at least started.

*) It may be just redundancy too.

[Bandobras Took]

The rules for influencing an opponent's resource are different; then you must reveal a manifestation of the opponent's faction if you are attempting to play it for yourself. Also, according to the MELE rules, such an influence attempt targets the card in question and so must be declared at the start of the influence attempt.

As with character/item/ally play, the rules for influencing an opponent's cards cannot be taken as rules for playing them for yourself.

It's an unclear question, which is why I brought it up here. I believe that the faction remains in your hand unless the influence attempt succeeds, but then, as you pointed out, must your opponent verify which faction you are discarding?

[Shapeshifter]

Bandobras Took, according to your argumentation you may even decide which faction you want to bring into play after the influence check, right?

Here is an example:
Éomer taps at Edoras to attempt to play a faction (Riders of Rohan or Wild Horses). He rolls 9. Thats not enough for both factions normally. But he reveals Riders of Rohan and because Éomer's card text says that he gets +2 vs. the Riders the check is successful?!
Something similar with Wild Horses: If the standard modifications on the faction's card apply even if the card was not revealed before the influence attempt: successful again!

Seems a bit weird to me.

Playable at any tapped or untapped non-Haven site in Rohan, Southern Rhovanion, Khand, Dorwinion, Horse Plains, or Harondor if the influence check is greater than 11. Standard Modifications: Men with home sites in the regions listed above (+3). Tap this faction to allow any company with one of these regions listed above in its site path to move up to 1 additional region.

Unique. Playable at Edoras if the influence check is greater than 9. Standard Modifications: Hobbits (+1), Dúnedain (+1).

[Konrad Klar]

The rules for influencing an opponent's resource are different; then you must reveal a manifestation of the opponent's faction if you are attempting to play it for yourself.

But if you are not attempting to play such faction?

All influence check modifier cards must be played before making the roll (2D6).
If the modified result is greater than the value required on the faction card, you place the faction in your marshalling point pile (it now counts towards your marshalling point total).

How to determine standard modifications (or modifications for Dragon factions) of the faction, if you even not decided which faction will be played?

P.S.
May be helpful or not. Example of card where you decide that card will be played after roll.

Tap a character during his site phase at a tapped or untapped Ruins & Lairs [R]. Make a roll (or draw a #) modified by +3 if the character is a diplomat. An ally may be played and placed under the character's control if the result is greater than 6 plus the ally's mind stat and the ally is not restricted from moving in this site's region. If an ally is played, tap the site if it is not already tapped.

[Bandobras Took]

The rules for influencing an opponent's resource are different; then you must reveal a manifestation of the opponent's faction if you are attempting to play it for yourself.

But if you are not attempting to play such faction?

As I said before, by rule you are targeting the faction, so it must be indicated when the attempt is declared.

All influence check modifier cards must be played before making the roll (2D6).
If the modified result is greater than the value required on the faction card, you place the faction in your marshalling point pile (it now counts towards your marshalling point total).

How to determine standard modifications (or modifications for Dragon factions) of the faction, if you even not decided which faction will be played?[/quote]

I'm pretty sure you need to indicate what faction you are attempting to influence; the key question is whether the faction remains in your hand during the influence attempt.

[Konrad Klar]

I'm pretty sure you need to indicate what faction you are attempting to influence; the key question is whether the faction remains in your hand during the influence attempt.

Good. I was under impression of:

Do you at any point have to tell your opponent what faction you are attempting to play?

So one thing that must be established is where ends playability conditions printed on faction's card and where starts rests of its text (that part that has no effect on play until card is not played).
Obviously playability conditions are in force even before card is played. Will Shaken is clear example.

Allows a character at a Haven [H] to attempt to bring a faction into play. The length of the site path from this Haven to the site at which the faction can be played must be two or less (this must be verified by an available site card). The influence check for this attempt is modified by -1 and is not modified by the influencing character's direct influence.

May be used to influence an opponent's faction only when you are attempting to bring
your copy of the faction into play.

This would mean that "attempt to bring a faction into play" includes also influencing an opponent's faction (as long as you have a copy of that faction). Second is not completely separate case governed by its own set of rules.

[Bandobras Took]

That's backwards, I think. Because Old Road only allows you to attempt to bring factions into play, it may not be used for what is strictly an influence attempt against an opponent's faction, but may be used for an attempt to play a faction as a result of an influence attempt against an opponent's faction.

However, when used against an opponent's faction, it follows the influence rules and not the default faction play rules -- same result does not always indicate same process.

P.S. Because I'm uncertain how this works, I may change my mind several times over the course of the discussion.