Council of Elrond

Ice-orcs wrote:Unique. Playable at any Ruins & Lairs [R] in Forochel or Withered Heath if the influence check is greater than 10. Once in play, the number required to influence this faction is 0. Standard Modifications: Wargs of Forochel (+2).

Simplest scenario (1): Ice-orcs is in play, Trouble On All Borders is played on it.
No site located in Forochel is in play. However players knows that in Forochel exists Ruins&Lairs (Lossadan Cairn) where Ice-orcs is playable thus any company moving trough Forochel or adjecent regions will be attacked.

Not so simple scenario (2): Ice-orcs is in play, Trouble On All Borders is played on it.
One's player copy of Lossadan Cairn is in play and is changed to Border-Hold (by Rebuild The Town).

Complex scenario (3): Ice-orcs is in play, Trouble On All Borders is played on it.
All's player copies of Lossadan Cairn are in play and all are changed to Border-Hold or Shadow-Hold (with Hold Rebuilt and Repaired).

Is in scenario (3) Ice-orcs still considered playable at one of sites in Forochel? How about scenario (2)?

Any thoughts?

Scenario 1 is obvious.

Scenario 2: I would say it still effects Forochel. The faction targetted is a minion faction, and assuming its not a FW player who played double dealing to play rebuild the check would be against his Forochel, as he can play the faction there.

Scenario 3: I would say no, as the player controlling the faction cant play Ice Orcs there anymore.


IN my answers I go for the fact that Trouble is played on a minion faction, and that the player who playe dthe faction has to check for sites... because youc ant play Ice Orcs at a hero Lossadan Cairn anyway (unless maybe with double dealing and FW).

There is a difference between whether you can play something or whether something is playable.

I think the question is simply:

For cards such as Trouble on all Borders, whose site should be used for the "playable at" listed on a faction?

My guess would be the player of the faction. Given that interpretation:

1) Yes, it works.

2) It depends on whose Lossadan Cairn the event was played on. Same player as Ice-Orcs -- no, Trouble will not work. Different player -- yes.

3) Assuming the controlling player if the Ice-Orcs has an event on his copy of Lossadan Cairn changing its site type, then Trouble would no work.

There is a similar question with agents who move to a site of different type: an agent may not move to a Wizardhaven even though that site might by a free-hold in your own deck, but when an agent taps to make creatures playable, whose site is used for the determination?