Council of Elrond

Hi all,

I was wondering why the following combo seems to be played as legal by many players:

That Ain't no Secret
(1) MP
Playable during the site phase on an untapped character at a site where Information is playable. Tap the character (but not the site). No marshalling points are received until this card is stored at a Darkhaven during the Character's organization phase.

Man of Skill
Unique. Saruman specific. Your permanent-events that require a site where Information is playable are each worth 2 marshalling points.

Today I was arguing that "Man of Skill" could not modify the MP value on "That Ain't no secret" until the card is stored, but my opponent played it otherwise, and I want to understand how he could

mfg Nicolai aka Vastor

Your opponent played it correctly.

Gatherer Of Loyalties wrote:Playable if you have more than 3 stage points. Your unique factions are each worth 2 marshalling points. If you are Alatar, your unique Dragon factions are each worth 4 marshalling points. If you are Pallando, your unique factions normally worth 3 or more marshalling points are each worth 3 marshalling points. Cannot be duplicated by a given player.

The phrase "Your unique factions are each worth 2 marshalling points" does not consider what the faction is normally worth or under which conditions. With Gatherer in play, Hero Hillmen is worth 2 MPs. Southrons are worth 2 MPs. Compare with the phrase "your unique factions normally worth 3 or more marshalling points are each worth 3 marshalling points." Here, the original MP value of the card matters; if you are Pallando, Hillmen will be worth 2, and Southrons worth 3.

Man of Skill does not modify the original value of a permanent event requiring an info site. It assigns an entirely new value, akin to giving a hazard without body a body value. Without Man of Skill, That Ain't No Secret will not be worth any MPs until stored, at which point it becomes worth 1 MP. With Man of Skill, the card is worth 2 MPs as long as it is in play.

Still, the card explicitly says "no MPs until stored", I don't see how that is overruled by Man of Skill. You say this only applies to the original MP value of the card, still I don't see how that would be relevant. In your line of reasoning, what's on the card actually doesn't matter, because MoS determines the MP value, yet, the card still has a cardtext that mentions Information, so it must be relevant somehow, that seems contradictory to me. Yet if it would be thus, that MoS gives MP's based on the number of copies in play and only checks for that number, then TANS would be worth 1 MP in addition to MoS. Basically, this is a mess. Hence it would be far clearer to let the whole cardtext of TANS prevail.

But, can you clarify why/how it is that Man of Skill assigns an entirely new value? this means cards worth no MP's would also be worth 2 MP's etc...this would have serious consequences possibly in dc games.

btw I have nothing to do with the OP's question

MEWH wrote:Marshalling points for stage resource cards are handled normally (i.e. as printed on the card). However, all other marshalling point cards are only worth 1 marshalling point each to a Fallen-wizard (regardless of their printed value). These MPs can not be modified by a hero or minion resource event

Strictly speaking, Ain't No Secret should be worth 1 MP to any FW regardless of its stored state. However, as this is blatantly ridiculous, we'll overlook it.

More traditionally, cards that do not give MPs until stored will become worth 1 MP when stored. They do not give their MPs in the same way that a character under Await the Advent does not give their MPs, or a Ring Item under Whispers/Rumours.

Still, the card explicitly says "no MPs until stored", I don't see how that is overruled by Man of Skill.

Minion events cannot modify MPs for a FW. Therefore Ain't No Secret cannot modify the MPs assigned to the card by Man of Skill. This is a value which does not modify Ain't No Secret's MP value. It overrides it entirely, as well as any relevant text on Ain't No Secret regarding its MP value in certain states.

In your line of reasoning, what's on the card actually doesn't matter, because MoS determines the MP value, yet, the card still has a cardtext that mentions Information, so it must be relevant somehow, that seems contradictory to me.

As far as MP values go, what's on the card does not matter. Man of Skill overrides such things. If Man of Skill had the phrase "Your permanent events playable at a site where information is playable that normally give you MPs are worth 2 MPs", that would be a differenet matter.

Yet if it would be thus, that MoS gives MP's based on the number of copies in play and only checks for that number, then TANS would be worth 1 MP in addition to MoS.

No. Man of Skill assigns an MP value to the card that overrides all other possible MP values the card can give. A theoretical 3 MP-when-stored info permanent event would be worth only 2 if you have Man of Skill in play, even if such an event were stored with Wizard's Trove.

But, can you clarify why/how it is that Man of Skill assigns an entirely new value? this means cards worth no MP's would also be worth 2 MP's etc...this would have serious consequences possibly in dc games.

Man of Skill does not check for whether a card normally gives MPs. Compare with cards like Great Patron or the Pallando text of Gatherer of Loyalties. Compare also Give Welcome To The Unexpected, and the difference between Fallen Radagast's Faction MP ability and his Ally ability.

There are three possible Fallen abilities:
1) MP source gives full MPs;
2) MP source assigned up to a certain amount based on normal MPs;
3) Resource is assigned a value regardless of whether it gives normal MPs.

All three types exist in the White Hand set. Man of Skill falls under the third category.

If this interferes with dream cards, it is the dream cards that will need to be rewritten.

P.S. Of course, this logic also means that Great Patron overrides await the Advent of Allies . . . hmm . . .

(Theory Mode On)

Actually, the contest between Great Patron and Await the Advent of Allies is of a different sort than that between Man of Skill and Ain't No Secret.

Great Patron/Await is an instance of two conflicting resources acting on the same MP source.

Man of Skill/Ain't No Secret is simply one resource acting on an MP source that it's meant to affect. If Man of Skill were not in play, Ain't No Secret would give zero. Presumably, playing Man of Skill will change this because it is supposed to act on these events.

In the contest between Great Patron/Await it's been said that Await wins because MPs not counting is not the same as modifying MPs.

That Ain't No Secret wrote:No marshalling points are received until this card is stored at a Darkhaven during the character's organization phase.

Rumors of Rings wrote:During your organization phase, you may take one ring special item (except for The One Ring) from your sideboard or discard pile and place it "off to the side" with this card. This item gives no marshalling points.

This would be a much closer parallel, except that cards off to the side cannot be targeted or affected by anything in the game (MEDM rules).

It does seem that Man of Skill is a rather unique instance of an MP source.

(Theory Mode Off)

IMO the Man of Skill trick is not legal: That Ain't no Secret gives no MPs until stored (it doesn't give 0 MPs, which is a completely different thing), even if Man of Skill is in play. Basically, the effect of MoS is rising the number in the top left corner of TAnS from 1 to 2, but it doesn't wipe off the parenthesis enclosing the '1'.

Those parenthesis mean "treat this top left corner as if it were empty before this card is stored, treat this corner as if '1' were printed on it once this card is stored". Having Man of Skill in play does nothing but replacing '1' with '2' in the quoted sentence.

The closest parallel is Rumor of the One: Gold Ring minor items (Binding Ring, Thrall Ring...) still don't yield any MP when RotO is in play, since those minor items give no MPs, which is not the same thing as giving 0 MPs. A resource giving no MP is not a source of MPs in any case, hence its MP value can't be raised nor reduced.

Problem: Man of Skill will cause Permanent Events which are not worth MPs at all to be worth 2 MPs.

To elucidate:

Rumor of the One has no bearing on this issue. Rumor of the One takes an existing value and modifies it.

Bruce wrote:Basically, the effect of MoS is rising the number in the top left corner of TAnS from 1 to 2

This is absolutely inaccurate. Man of Skill does not modify an already existing value.

Man of Skill has nothing to do with any existing value or lack thereof. It simply doesn't matter. To utilize the example, it puts a 2 without any parentheses on the card. Ain't No Secret's text only applies to the MPs on the card itself -- not the MPs assigned to it by Man of Skill.

Put another way, for Man of Skill not to apply to the card, Minion Resources would have to be able to override Stage Resources for FWs. This is not the case.

The key point in this whole discussion is the difference between:
1) Modifying the MP value of a resource
2) Creating an MP value for a resource which is worth no MP at all

My point is that MoS can only do 1), your point is that MoS can do both 1) and 2).

Modifying the MP value of a resource can be either done by means of adding a modifier to the MP value of a resource (e.g. Sentinels of Numenor giving 1 additional MP for each faction playable in Gondor) or by means of setting a fixed value (e.g. Gatherer of Loyalties giving F-Alatar 4 MPs for each Dragon Faction, no matter the faction's normal MP value printed on the card).

Creating an MP value for a resource which is worth no MP at all can only be done by setting a fixed value, of course.

This doesn't mean that an effect which sets a fixed MP value also has automatically the power to create an MP value for non-MP resources.

MEWH rulesbook wrote:Marshalling points for stage resource cards are handled normally (i.e. as printed on the card). However, all other marshalling point cards are only worth 1 marshalling point each to a
Fallen-wizard (regardless of their printed value).
These MPs can not be modified by a hero or minion resource event (e.g. Rumor of the One, Tribute Garnered, Sentinels of Númenor, etc.). However, Fallen-wizard abilities and stage resource cards can modify the number of marshalling points certain cards give.

(bold original, underline mine)

MEWH rulesbook clearly state that stage resources can modify the number of MPs yielded by MP-resources. It is stated nowhere that stage cards can attach an MP value to a resource which is meant to yield no MPs at all. This is exactly the same situation with Rumor of the One and ring minor items.

The fact that Mos text does not say "Your permanent events playable at a site where information is playable that normally give you MPs are worth 2 MPs" is irrelevant. MoS does not override the MEWH rule underlined above: it simply falls into that class of stage cards or effects described there. Cards with the power to create an MP value simply do not exist, that's why the sentence "that normally give you MPs" is omittable. You can compare the text of MoS with F-Pallando's ability

Fallen Pallando wrote:Your Man, Dwarf, Elf, Dunadan, Hobbit, Orc, and Troll factions are each worth 2 marshalling points

The text does not say "Your Man, Dwarf, Elf, Dunadan, Hobbit, Orc, and Troll factions that normally give you MPs are each worth 2 marshalling points", because it applies to all factions regardless of their MP value.

Most stage resources which modify the MP given by other resources clearly state "...that are worth at least X MPs" or "...that are worth X or fewer MPs" simply because they have different effects on the resources according with the MP value printed on the card. For example

Grey Embassy wrote:If on Gandalf, your unique hero factions normally worth 2 or fewer marshalling points are each worth 2 marshalling points. If on Gandalf, your unique hero factions normally worth 3 or more marshalling points are each worth 3 marshalling points.

Omitting the MP value of the resources affected doesn't include all resources, it just includes all MP-resources.

No, my point is that Man of Skill does not do 1) at all. There is no instance where it modifies an existing MP value. If anything, it replaces it. If there were a faction in the game that was not a source of MPs, Gatherer of Loyalties would make such a faction worth 2 MPs.

Helms of Iron wrote:All Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with body have their body modified by +1; and all Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with no body have 4 body.

The first effect is modifying a value. The second effect is not modifying a value. Man of Skill works in a manner similar to the second effect.

This doesn't mean that an effect which sets a fixed MP value also has automatically the power to create an MP value for non-MP resources.

Man of Skill wrote:Unique. Saruman specific. Your permanent-events that require a site where Information is playable are each worth 2 marshalling points.

Where in this text does it say that the permanent event must be worth marshalling points in the first place? Nowhere.

Where in this text does it say that the effect does not apply to certain permanent events playable at info sites? Nowhere.

MEWH wrote:Fallen-wizard abilities and stage resource cards can modify the number of marshalling points certain cards give.

Yes, Stage Resources can modify the number of marshalling points . . . but that doesn't mean a given stage resource does modify marshalling points. Nor does it mean that stage resources can do nothing else besides modify marshalling points.

Cards with the power to create an MP value simply do not exist

On the contrary, No Better Use creates a Kill MP value where none existed. Remnants of Old Robberies creates an MP value on itself even though no MP value is indicated on the card's upper left corner. Await the Advent of Allies is an example, so to speak, of the reverse -- a card that removes an MP value from a card that had it (it does not reduce it to 0).

Man of Skill creates an MP value. It is simply more direct than other cards of that nature.

And if there were a faction that was not a source of MPs, Fallen Pallando's ability would affect it. The non-existence of such a faction does not change the ability's effect.

Bandobras Took wrote:Man of Skill creates an MP value. It is simply more direct than other cards of that nature.

And if there were a faction that was not a source of MPs, Fallen Pallando's ability would affect it. The non-existence of such a faction does not change the ability's effect.

Yes. If even That Ain't no Secret would not have printed MP value Man of Skill would add it. However Man of Skill does not affect "No marshalling points are received until this card is stored at a Darkhaven during the Character's organization phase.".
MoS just repleaces MP value, but not condition under which MP are given.

If "no marshalling points are received" applies to the points assigned to the card by Man of Skill, then Ain't No Secret's continuous effect would be overriding Man of Skill's continuous effect.

Generally speaking, for Fallen Wizards, Stage Resources have the priority over non-stage resources.

Mallorn wrote:All Hobbit factions are worth +1 marshalling points.

Sentinels of Numenor wrote:All factions under this card give an additional marshalling point.

Alliance of the Free Peoples wrote:If at least one hero Dwarf faction, one hero Elf faction, and one hero Man faction is in play, all hero Dwarf factions, hero Elf factions, and hero Man factions give an additional marshalling point.

Is there a difference between "Worth" MPs and "Gives" MPs? I have assumed the two expressions are synonymous, and read Man of Skill as the card is worth 2 MPs, i.e. gives 2 MPs.

Tower Raided wrote:Playable during the site phase on an untapped Shadow-hold if your company there: bears an item worth at least 2 marshalling points

What does "worth" mean here? That the item only has to potentially give at least 2 MPs? Can I use Earth of Galadriel's Orchard?

Unique. Only playable at Lorien. 2 marshalling points if stored at Bag End.

As far as I know, it is only "worth" 2 MPs when stored at Bag End. It is not worth MPs before then and cannot satisfy Tower Raided. Worth refers to current MPs given unless otherwise noted.

Therefore, if Man of Skill says the permanent event is "worth" the MPs, that means it currently has that value and gives the MPs for it. Ain't No Secret should not contradict this -- because of the general principle that Stage Resources take precedence over non-stage resources for Fallen Wizards.

Bandobras took wrote:Is there a difference between "Worth" MPs and "Gives" MPs?

No.
There is difference between "how much" and "when". Saruman's ability or Legacy of Smiths would make the Earth of Galadriel's Orchard worth 2MP, but still not until stored at Bag End. For other FW without Legacy of Smiths it is worth 1MP only if stored at Bag End.*
So Earth of Galadriel's Orchard, Book of Mazarbool, or Sapling of The White Tree cannot be used as condition for Tower Rided (by any player).

*) And please note about:

The White Hand, The Victory Conditions wrote:You do not receive marshalling points for cards stored at non-Wizardhaven sites.

What I'm trying to point out is that rules create the framework for a card's interpretation. A card's text prevails over a conflicting rule, but the card text's interpretation cannot be pushed to the extent that it brings about a situation which is excluded in any case by the rules.

Helms of Iron, Remnants of Old Robberies and No Better Use have no bearing with the issue.

Helms of iron creates a body attribute for any Orc/Troll/Man attack which normally has no body attribute. The rulesbook clearly says that an attack can have a body attribute, or no body attribute at all. Thus an effect creating a body attribute for an attack bears no inconsistency under this standpoint.

Remnants creates no MP value on itself: it simply overrides the rule stating that KPs for hazard creatures without * defeated by a minion company do not count. Minions are not prevented in any case by the rules to receive any KPs at all from defeated creatures. Thus no insoluble conflict with the rules in this case either.

No Better Use describes a mechanism to get KPs based on the MP value of the character captured with NBU. It is stated nowhere in the rules that killing the opp's characters in CvCC is the sole source of KPs allowed. Again, no inconsistency.

The fact that Stage cards can modify MP values doesn't mean that stage resources "can do nothing else besides modify marshalling points"? Where is it stated that stage cards can go beyond their effect described in the rulesbook?

Stating that a person is able to walk from point A to point B does not mean that the person is able to fly from the same point to the same point. This is a further step which cannot be infered from the original statement. Likewise, the fact that a 1-year-old child can toddle doesn't imply that the child is also able to run.

MEWH rulesbook state that stage cards can modify the amount MPs a resource is worth. "Modifying" a certain value means "changing" the amount of that value. A value which does not exist simply cannot be changed.

According to your interpretation of MoS, Gollum could tap to play Lucky Search and take control of an item, overriding the fact that

METW rulesbook wrote:Allies can not bear items.

(bold original)

Lucky Search wrote:Scout only. During the site phase, tap a scout at a Shadow-hold [S] or Dark-hold [D]. Turn over cards from your play deck one at a time until you reveal a non-special item or reach the end. If you reveal a non-special item, the scout takes control of it. In any case, the scout must face a single strike attack with a prowess equal to 3 plus the number of cards revealed; this attack/strike cannot be cancelled. Reshuffle all revealed cards except the item back into play deck.

Where does Lucky Search say "Scout character only"? Nowhere.

Bruce wrote:Remnants creates no MP value on itself: it simply overrides the rule stating that KPs for hazard creatures without * defeated by a minion company do not count. Minions are not prevented in any case by the rules to receive any KPs at all from defeated creatures. Thus no insoluble conflict with the rules in this case either.

Remnants of Old Robberies wrote:Playable on non-Wolves, non-Animals, non-Nazgûl hazard creature that a company has just defeated. Place this card with the attack's card. The company receives a number of miscellaneous marshalling points equal to the kill marshalling points the defeated creature would give a hero player.

Nowhere in card's text is stated the defeated creature gives "a number of miscellaneous marshalling points equal to the kill marshalling points the defeated creature would give a hero player.".
Ok, it is badly written - "The company receives" does not make a sense - player receives MP.
But if you are assuming the for the reason it is badly written, the "a number of miscellaneous marshalling points equal to the kill marshalling points the defeated creature would give a hero player." is badly written too and should mean "creature gives a number of miscellaneous marshalling points equal to the kill marshalling points the defeated creature would give a hero player.", it is only your interpretation.

That's not the point of my argument. Frankly speaking, I'm not interested in "the company receives" or "the player receives", or other details regarding that card's wording.

The point is that Remnants does not create any MP value on itself, basically its effect is that an MP value which would not be counted is now counted. Be it badly written or not, should it be worded "the player receives" instead of "the company receives" or not, its interpretation clearly does not cross over the boundaries set by the rules, which is what happens when MoS goes well beyond the simple "modifying" an MP value or Gollum takes control of an item through the play of Lucky Search.