Council of Elrond

This is my first post here; so, first and foremost, greetings everyone!

My question is: could Mistress Lobelia, (with quite a lucky roll) be played at Barrow-downs? It's quite a counterintuitive scenario, but....

Here, There, or Yonder

Tap a character during his site phase at a tapped or untapped Ruins & Lairs [R]. Make a roll (or draw a #) modified by +3 if character is a diplomat. An ally may be played and placed under the character's control if the result is greater than 6 plus the ally's mind stat and the ally is not restricted from moving in this site's region. If an ally is played, tap the site if it is not already tapped.

Allies' movement restrictions are normally region-based, and HToY works correctely with them. Although, Mistress Lobelia movement restrictions are site-based:

Unique. Manifestation of Lobelia Sackville-Baggins. May only be played at Bag End or Bree. Discard this card if her company moves to any site other than Bree, Old Forest, The White Towers, or a site in The Shire. Tap Mistress Lobelia to search your discard pile or play deck for any one item, ally, or faction playable at her current site. Place the resource in your hand and reshuffle your play deck.

Let's say that I'm at Barrowdowns (or Wothy Hills, or Tharbad) and I play Here, There, or Yonder. Is Mistress Lobelia "restricted from moving in this site's region? That is "restricted from moving in Cardolan"? The answer would be: no (i.e. Old Forest) . Thus, playing Lobelia would be legal. Am I right?

The only other ally whose movement restriction is site-base rather than region-based is the Barlog, but no fw may include him in his deck, so no issue arises.

ps: Could someone say (in a blatanly dishonest, but formally correct way) that Mistress Lobelia is not restricted even from moving in Withered Heat? Her movement restriction say nothing about regions. From her card's text, one could only argue (this is the key term), that he must discar her if her company moves in any other region than Arthedain, The Shire and Cardolan...

Mistress Lobelia is restricted by region just as other allies. Compare the wording on Tom Bombadil. Mistress Lobelia may is restricted from moving to sites not in the Shire region. Bree, Old Forest, and White Towers are exceptions to this, but they are not a general exception to her region movement restriction.

@Bandobras Took
What about situation where Nature's Revange is played on Old Forest? Can be Mistress Lobelia played here (with help the Here, There, or Yonder), or no - because she is generally prevented from moving to any site not in The Shire (with listed exceptions)?

I believe playing her with the help of Here, There, or Yonder prevents her from being played at sites in any region outside the Shire. Here, There, or Yonder makes reference only to the region restrictions of a given ally. Mistress Lobelia is unique in that she has specific sites she may move to, but the question is whether there is a case where she prevented from moving in a given region.

For example, Mistress Lobelia is discarded if you move to Tharbad. Therefore, she is restricted from moving in Cardolan in at least one instance. Therefore, Here, There, or Yonder cannot help her there, because the ally must not be restricted from moving in the site's region.

Your argumentation is seamless. I'm convinced.

Bandobras wrote:

For example, Mistress Lobelia is discarded if you move to Tharbad. Therefore, she is restricted from moving in Cardolan in at least one instance. Therefore, Here, There, or Yonder cannot help her there, because the ally must not be restricted from moving in the site's region.

Once again, my intuition obviously works completely different. I'd say, since Lobelia is allowed to move to Old Forest and White Towers, she is clearly allowed to move through Cardolan and Arthedain, else she would be discarded when moving there. Hence, as far as I'm concerned, you could play her at sites in these regions with HToY. Seems to me a line of reasoning any lawyer could use, successfully, to get the defendant off the hook
And it would also fit on a thematic level, for me.

[lawyer mode]The question is not whether she is allowed to move there, it is whether she is restricted from moving there. [/lawyer mode]

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:I'd say, since Lobelia is allowed to move to Old Forest and White Towers, she is clearly allowed to move through Cardolan and Arthedain, else she would be discarded when moving there.

Is any reason for discarding Lobelia if her company is moving to Barrow-downs other than "she is restricted from moving to the sites in region other than The Shire"?

May Ringwraith be considered as not restricted from using special items because he can use Helm of Fear?
Or (by contrast) Ringwraith could not use Helm of Fear, because he cannot use items?

EDIT:
Corrected misquote (Bandobras Took - Thorsten the Traveller).

You misquoted -- Thorsten said it, not me.

Bandobras Took wrote:You misquoted -- Thorsten said it, not me.

Sorry... .

Will be correted immediately.
My apologies to Bandobras Took and Thorsten the Traveller.

P.S. I was very startled by such sudden change of notion...

I got your point.
But....
I'm not completely convinced. I reread Tom's card, and their movement restrictions are spelled differently:

Tom:

Discard Tom Bombadil if his company moves to a site that is not in: Arthedain, Cardolan, Rhudaur, or The Shire.

Lobelia:

Discard this card if her company moves to any site other than Bree, Old Forest, The White Towers, or a site in The Shire.

In Tom's card, regions are stated directly: "a site that is not in"; Lobelia is discarded if moved in "any site other than x, y, z...", a list which includes all the sites in the Shire. It doesn't says just Bag End because the "A Long expected Party" resourcebook introduced 16 new site cards, some of which were in the Shire (or maybe to puzzle everyone who didn't know about that product ). Tom, like the Ents, cannot leave certain regions; Lobelia may just move to a certain number of sites, which also include any site in the Shire. He's restricted, she's only-allowed-to. Yes, that's really lawyer-like

If she were allowed to move at Old forest, but restricted (and thus, discarded) from moving to a site that is not in the Shire, there would be a contradiction in the card (unless it said "....except Old Forest, Bree, ecc.").

This is how I see it. But I think this doesn't really matter: it just came to my mind that one could have her at Barrow-downs and Worthy Hills (why should anyone want her at Tharbad anyway?) using Farmer Maggot. Which just replaces the site. So that no movement occurs. Whitout rolls, diplomats, or rule conundrums.

Discard this card if her company moves to any site other than <snip> a site in The Shire.

The slightly different wording is simply because there are some specific extra sites allowed. The phrasing for region restriction listed above is essentially the same as Tom's; a site other than a site in The Shire is by definition a site not in the Shire.

Zangtumb wrote:It doesn't says just Bag End because the "A Long expected Party" resourcebook introduced 16 new site cards, some of which were in the Shire (or maybe to puzzle everyone who didn't know about that product ).

Under some conditions also Refuge and Wondrous Maps may be located in The Shire.

Zangtumb wrote:If she were allowed to move at Old forest, but restricted (and thus, discarded) from moving to a site that is not in the Shire, there would be a contradiction in the card (unless it said "....except Old Forest, Bree, ecc.").

And it is probably the main moot point. I've answered it in respone to the Thorsten's post. Please note the Helm of Fear does not contain word "exception" in its text. Does it need it to be considered exception?
Existence of (valid) exception proves existence of general rule.

Zangtumb wrote: But I think this doesn't really matter: it just came to my mind that one could have her at Barrow-downs and Worthy Hills (why should anyone want her at Tharbad anyway?) using Farmer Maggot. Which just replaces the site. So that no movement occurs. Whitout rolls, diplomats, or rule conundrums.

Using Farmer Maggot counts as movement, so that doesn't actually work. (See COE 65)

As far as Mistress Lobelia goes and Here, There, and Yonder, I don't believe you could use it outside the Shire. The text of allies that have movement restrictions only restrict their movement to certain sites. Normally it is sites outside certain regions, however, they may move through regions that they may not stop in. For instance if you control Leaflock and are at Ruined Signal Tower in Enedhwaith and want to move to Dimrill Dale in Redhorn Gap you can move through Dunland and Hollin and make it there in one turn as well as avoiding the Gap of Isen and . So you may move through any region, but only in certain regions do you have unrestricted movement. The others are subjected to the restriction that if you stop at a site there you must discard your ally. While I don't think the specific issue of Mistress Lobelia has been ruled on I think the result would be similar. The only region where you have unrestricted movement is the Shire, hence only at sites in that region would you be able to use Here, There, and Yonder.

Yes indeed...
Well, I am now deeply convinced of the unplayability of Mistress Lobelia at Barrow-downs, or other sites in Cardolan. There was no overkilling strategy keyed to that (other than the great image of her scavenging through the tombs), but the discussion helped me focus how intriguing may be exploring in depth the mechanics of this beautiful games.

Thank you everyone (and thank ICE for Fallen-Radagast's special ability)