Returned Beyond All Hope

The place to ask and debate all rules issues related to MECCG.
Post Reply
User avatar
zirilan
Posts: 351
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:56 pm
Location: c:\

Image
Bring one hazard creature of the following type from your discard pile to your hand: Maia, Elf, Dwarf, or Dúnedain.
Alternatively, bring a Maia permanent-event from active play to your hand.
Alternatively, make a roll (draw a #) - if the result is greater than 8, bring an eliminated Elf or Maia hazard creature to its owner's discard pile and place this card in your opponent's marshalling point pile (do not discard it).
Errata
  • Returned Beyond All Hope "un-eliminates" a hazard creature, allowing any manifestation of that character to be played.
  • This card may target creatures still in play as trophies.
This card allows you to return a Maia permanent-event you do not controll nor own to your hand. Due to general game mechanism this card can be discarded to your discard pile, your deck, or even to your sideboard.
Q 1: How do you know which of the Maia cards are yours after searching a shuffled deck if you did not mark them?
Q 2: Shouldn't there be a serious erratum on this card not allowing you to take opponents cards to your own hand?
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3109
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

I agree, this seems a good card for official errata.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
Bruce
Ex Council Member
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: Rome, Italy

I think it goes on without saying that you can only hold in your hand the cards you own. ;)
Do we really need an errata to remind people that they can only target Maia perm-events they own when playing RBAH?
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3109
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Yes, because there's absolutely no rule forbidding people from targeting an opponent's hazards with their own. :| Otherwise I could not play Velocity of Haste on my opponent's Ahunt Dragon.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
thorondor
Ex Council Chairman
Posts: 727
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:53 pm
Location: salzburg, austria
Contact:

but then, Out of the Black Sky has some extra text that allows to target opponents nazgul. wouldnt be necessary, if OotBS can be used anyway.
Out of the Black Sky
Permanent Event
MP: 5 kill
Playable if Doors of Night is in play on a Nazgul permanent-event that could immediately attack if it were in your hand. The Nazgul immediately attacks as a creature from its permanent-event state (not counting against the hazard limit) and chooses defending characters. If the Nazgul is defeated, place this card in opponent's marshalling point pile and remove the Nazgul from play. Otherwise, discard this card. This can be used on an opponent's Nazgul permanent-event as well as on your own.
User avatar
zirilan
Posts: 351
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:56 pm
Location: c:\

thorondor wrote:but then, Out of the Black Sky has some extra text that allows to target opponents nazgul. wouldnt be necessary, if OotBS can be used anyway.
Out of the Black Sky
Permanent Event
MP: 5 kill
Playable if Doors of Night is in play on a Nazgul permanent-event that could immediately attack if it were in your hand. The Nazgul immediately attacks as a creature from its permanent-event state (not counting against the hazard limit) and chooses defending characters. If the Nazgul is defeated, place this card in opponent's marshalling point pile and remove the Nazgul from play. Otherwise, discard this card. This can be used on an opponent's Nazgul permanent-event as well as on your own.
If that would be valid, that you can not target an opponents hazard permanent-event with your own hazard events, a player is not allowed to Twilight opponents Doors of Night as a hazard player anymore.
thorondor
Ex Council Chairman
Posts: 727
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:53 pm
Location: salzburg, austria
Contact:

yes, true, and probably we will find more examples. it just came to my mind, so i wanted to add it to the discussion.
lets see how the rules wizards deal with that ;-)
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3109
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Sometimes card texts have redundancies.
MELE, 91 wrote:Only entities that are untapped may perform actions that require them to tap.
Yet there are any number of cards which require a character to tap that also state they are only playable on an untapped character.

Out of the Black Sky is an example of such a redundancy -- there is no rule saying your hazards cannot target your opponent's hazards. Out of the Black Sky simply makes that clear on the card itself.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions & Debate (unofficial)”