Council of Elrond

This is my first post here so Hey to all of you.

I dont know if this been asked before i spend half a hour searcing this area for an answer but didnt find anything so....

If i play the great hunt and have the ally "regiment of black crows" in the company, can i cancel one of the great hunt attacks (with the allys gametext)???

Fredrik

Tap this ally to cancel a hazard creature attack not keyed to a site and to put the creature's card back into its player's hand. Cannot be duplicated in a given company.

Your opponent reveals cards one at a time from his play deck or his discard pile (your choice). Any hazard creature revealed immediately attacks Alatar's company.

As far as I can tell, the revealed hazard creatures are not keyed to anything at all, so that part of Regiment would work. However, Regiment states that you "put the creature's card back to its player's hand."

Since the creatures from Great Hunt do not come from a player's hand, I would say Regiment would not work.

As with other cards that use the conjunction "and," this interpretation is up for debate.

I do not think that "and" is crucial here.*
After all creature card exists even if it is unable to perform required action (sage ally can use Marvels Told despite of fact that allies cannot make cc). "return" is more problematic here. Card not taken from hand may not be returned to hand. At the best it may be taken off on hand from table. And the same may be said in case of creatures attacking in result of Long Dark Reach, Exhalation of Decay, Out of Black Sky, or In Greath Wrath.
But if we would say "it was not played from hand, so it cannot taken off because then it would not be returned", we should also say that special effect of minion Himring does not apply for overt companies moving to the Himring already on table, because then Himring is nor revealed as new site.

*) It may be crucial in case of creature attacks not from creatures, e.g. from Dragon Ahunts.

I view it as more in the nature of ally making action of Ready to His Will e.g. canceling the attack and making an ally are part of the same effect (according to current rulings).

we should also say that special effect of minion Himring does not apply for overt companies moving to the Himring already on table, because then Himring is nor revealed as new site.

I've always played it that way . . .

As I said, the and for me is crucial because returning the creature to hand is part of the same effect as canceling the attack. Marvels Told is two different effects; removal of a permanent event and corruption check. Again, that's strictly interpretation, since an effect is at best an ambiguous concept in the rules.

Thx for your replies but was your answer that i could or not??? I try to explain how i thought it will work so you guys have something to tear apart

So you are saying i can not cancel the attack because i cant put the creature back in to players hand....

The intention of the card should be to cancel an attack, if the attack come from sideboard, discard pile etc you could not put it back to hand either.

The action is tapping the ally

Effect is:
to cancel an attack not keyed to a site and to put a creature back to players hand


The card is still canceled even if it cant return to hand. (I fullfill so much i can )

It is more "Question about Regiment of Black Crows" than "Question about The great hunt", so I would mention also cases where attack cannot be canceled and creature was played from hand*.

And there is another similar card - Riddling Talk.

Riddling Talk wrote:Riddling attempt. Playable on a character whose company is facing an attack of the type listed below. Character makes a roll (or draws a #) modified by: +2 for each sage and +1 for each Hobbit in his company. If the result is greater than: 8 against Dragons and Drakes, 10 against Men and Giants, 12 against Slayers, awakened Plants, Orcs, Spiders, and Trolls; Then name a card and opponent must reveal his hand. If the named card is in opponent's hand, the creature's card is discarded (all of its attacks are canceled) and the hazard limit against the character's company is decreased by three.

And also Great Ruse.

Great Ruse wrote:Playable during the site phase on a Shadow-hold [S] or Dark-hold [D] hero site if you have an overt company there. Replace the hero site card with the corresponding minion site card. Discard when this site is discarded or returned to your location deck. 'Thief, thief, thief!'-Hob

Cursives and bolds original. Underlines mine.

They all operates on objects not announced initially in "playable on" part (attack does not need be necessary from creature, site may be represent by non-site card e.g. by Wondrous Maps).

Enough number of cards/cases for creating unified theory.



*) BTW. Is not obvious now that "playing a card" does not mean only "the process of bringing a card from your hand into play." but generally "the process of bringing a card from into play."? Are not creatures attacking as result of The Great Hunt played?

Again, I point to Ready To His Will. Current rulings say that if you cannot make the creature an ally, you cannot cancel the attacks and vice versa.

You can certainly play Riddling Talk to make a roll and name a card in the opponent's hand, but unless there's a creature card to be discarded, no attacks will be canceled and the hazard limit will not be reduced.

I'm not sure what Great Ruse has to do with anything . . . under what circumstances would you be unable to replace the site card?'

And I'm still seeing nothing that makes the definition of playing a card obvious.

Bandobras Took wrote:I'm not sure what Great Ruse has to do with anything . . . under what circumstances would you be unable to replace the site card?'

FW may have an overt company at Wondrous Maps and Wondrus Maps site type may be changed to by Chocking Shadows or Deeper Shadow.
While Great Ruse is playable on hero , or site, there is no minion site card corresponding to the Wondrous Maps.
Or player may just not have the corresponding minion site card in LD for any other hero , or site.

Bandobras Took wrote:And I'm still seeing nothing that makes the definition of playing a card obvious.

So if creatures attacking as result of The Great Hunt or Long Dark Reach are not considered played (because they are not introduced to play from hand) we have one of two paradox to choice:

a) they are not played, but they are in play.
b) they are not played and are not in play , so cards that affects creature cards (Ready To His Will, Regiment of Black Crows) cannot be used against them. Despite of fact that they are not played and are not in play, creatures can attack.

I am not sure where this discussion is heading. The card does not inclued the word play/play at all.

"tap this ally to cancel a hazard creature attack not keyed to a site and to put the creatures card back into players hand"

I guess you can see it like this (it has nothing to do with play/played...)

it can cancel a attack from the great hunt (it fullfills all conditions to cancel the attack)

the canceling part may fail because you cant put the card back into players hand

Nightlord wrote:I am not sure where this discussion is heading.

Me too. However I think that resolution of problem mentioned in first post of this thread may be impossible without touching related questions.

Nightlord wrote:I guess you can see it like this (it has nothing to do with play/played...)

Card not in play cannot be affected. You cannot affect creature that is just declared, or that is playdeck/discard pile/sideboard.

Arent they considered in play???
The great hunt make them attack alatars company

According to some interpretators (not me) because:

CRF, Rulings by Term, Playing a Card wrote:Playing a card is the process of bringing a card from your hand into play.

creatures attacking in result of Long Dark Reach are not considered played; creatures attacking in result of The Great hunt also does not come from hand.

So it is up to them to reconcile their theory with effects of cards like Regiment of Black Crows, or Ready to His Will.
They can choose between (a) and (b) mentioned earlier (or change their notion).


Regardless of above the main problem still exists (although how exactly it will be resolved depends on above):
1) It is not sure whether all objects mentioned in Regiment o Black Crows and Riddling Talk are targets. If they all are targets then RoBC could not be used against attacks from Ahunts, RT could not be used against attacks not from creature and in conditions where Hazard Limit does not exist*.
2) Regardless of (1) it is not sure whether if one of objects mentioned in RoBC, (or Ready to His Will) is unable to perform required action the other action should be performed.
3) Regardless of (1) and (2) it is not sure whether card that does not come from hand may be put on hand if text says "put it back to it's player hand".

Ok. It seems complex (to me) and I believe that it is such. In this post I have tried only to split it on separate things.

*) Except of site phase because:

Dragons, Hazard Limit (Clarification) wrote:Any effects which modify the hazard limit against a company during its site phase are ignored.

Nightlord: If you want a definite answer, PMing the current NetRep (Miguel) is the way to go. As Konrad has admirably summed up, this is a complicated question and touches a variety of cards depending on the answer.

Hey Nightlord! As per your question, you can use the Crows and the creature will go to owner's hand. Cheerio!

What about Ahunt Dragons, then?

a) Are they returned to owner's hand when RoBC is used to cancel the attack?
or
b) Is the attack not canceled at all because the long-event may not be returned to owner's hand?