Master of Wood, Water or Hill

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the JabberwocK
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NetRep Digest #29 wrote: - Regions may not be targeted outside the movement-hazard phase since they are not considered to be "in play" during that time.
- Regions may not be targeted if they are not part of a company's site path or a site's site path.
I do not know if these rulings have been overturned in later NetRep Digests, but the answers given above are quite clear.
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Theo
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The quote I found was: "to target anything, that thing needs to be in play. When a site is face down, its site path is not in play." - CoE #29

What document are you using? Seems to be an interpretation of the original wording.
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Konrad Klar
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the Jabberwock wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:30 pm
NetRep Digest #29 wrote: - Regions may not be targeted outside the movement-hazard phase since they are not considered to be "in play" during that time.
- Regions may not be targeted if they are not part of a company's site path or a site's site path.
I do not know if these rulings have been overturned in later NetRep Digests, but the answers given above are quite clear.
The quite clear answers lead to some unclear situation.

Organization phase.
There is FW Radagast's Haven with Girdle of Radagast located in Anduin Vales.
Gundabad region is not considered to be "in play" at given time.
So if it is not "in play" it is not affected by Girdle of Radagast.
Someone cannot play Refuge located in Gundabad at this point.
He need first move a company to Mount Gundabad, then in next turn he may play Refuge.
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Theo
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I'm not sure I understand the example. Refuge specifies that the regions should instead be played face up, thus allowing it to confirm the Wilderness when it resolves (and it targets a company at declaration, not a region). Girdle only targets the Wizardhaven and its region; its region and the neighboring regions aren't targeted.

But I think the quoted conclusions from interpretation of CoE #29 are misleading. Regions aren't normally available for targeting outside the movement/hazard phase because they are normally face down during the organization and long-event phases and presumably removed at the end of each company's movement/hazard phase.
CRF wrote:Annotation 4: An action may not target a face-down card nor any element of a face down card. Face down cards include unrevealed new site cards and on-guard cards.
But if they are played face up during the organization phase (like from Refuge), they would be perfectly valid targets (say, for Girdle targeting the Wizardhaven's region).

Separately, they are not valid targets for hazards (even if they were revealed) unless they are part of the resolving company's site path or its site's site path.
CRF wrote:Hazards may only be played on a company whose movement/hazard phase is being resolved, or on the site they are moving to.
Last edited by Theo on Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Konrad Klar
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Theo wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:10 pm I'm not sure I understand the example. Refuge specifies that the regions should instead be played face up, thus allowing it to confirm the Wilderness when it resolves; it targets a company at declaration, not a region.
Allegedly regions may not be targeted outside the movement-hazard phase since they are not considered to be "in play" during that time.
If they are not "in play", then they cannot be affected at all (by Girdle of Radagast for example).

A type of region must be known to be [-me_wi-] in first place. Otherwise Refuge cannot be played in such way that it will be located in that region (last region in company's site path).
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the JabberwocK
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Theo wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:34 pm The quote I found was: "to target anything, that thing needs to be in play. When a site is face down, its site path is not in play." - CoE #29

What document are you using? Seems to be an interpretation of the original wording.
My apologies. That was my own wording and I should have stated that. It was easier for me to quote from the new URD at the time rather than dig back into the NetRep Digest.
The question asked to the NetRep was regarding targeting regions specifically, so I feel what I posted was relevant and accurate. Perhaps I took too much liberty with:
Regions may not be targeted outside the movement-hazard phase since they are not considered to be "in play" during that time.
... because there are ways for a site path to be in play outside of the M/H phase?

If either of my statements are untrue, please specify why, so that I can edit the new URD. Thanks
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the JabberwocK
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Konrad Klar wrote: Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:08 am
the Jabberwock wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:30 pm
NetRep Digest #29 wrote: - Regions may not be targeted outside the movement-hazard phase since they are not considered to be "in play" during that time.
- Regions may not be targeted if they are not part of a company's site path or a site's site path.
I do not know if these rulings have been overturned in later NetRep Digests, but the answers given above are quite clear.
The quite clear answers lead to some unclear situation.

Organization phase.
There is FW Radagast's Haven with Girdle of Radagast located in Anduin Vales.
Gundabad region is not considered to be "in play" at given time.
So if it is not "in play" it is not affected by Girdle of Radagast.
Someone cannot play Refuge located in Gundabad at this point.
He need first move a company to Mount Gundabad, then in next turn he may play Refuge.
Yes, I would think that if the regions are not in play, then they are not affected by Girdle's ability until such region comes into play. As soon as a region comes into play, Girdle would affect it.


Theo wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:10 pm Girdle only targets the Wizardhaven and its region; the neighboring regions aren't targeted.
This is not true. Girdle also affects the neighboring regions.
GIRDLE OF RADAGAST ‐ Permanent‐event (R)
[MP: 5; SP: 3]
Radagast specific. Playable on one of your protected Wizardhavens [ [-me_ha-] ] if you are Radagast and have at least 12 SP and 6 allies and/or unique factions in play (the factions must be playable at sites in the Wizardhavenʹs [ [-me_ha-] ] region or adjacent regions). The Wizardhavenʹs [ [-me_ha-] ] region and all adjacent regions become Wilderness [ [-me_wi-] ]. Cannot be duplicated.
Theo wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:10 pm But if they are played face up during the organization phase (like from Refuge), they would be perfectly valid targets (say, for Girdle targeting the Wizardhaven's region).
Are you saying that Refuge's card text is making an exception to the normal rule of revealing regions at the beginning of the M/H phase, thus it is creating an allowance for you to reveal your region cards during the Organization Phase? If this is the case, I would agree that Girdle would affect any applicable regions prior to the M/H phase beginning.

That said, I feel like Refuge may instead be poorly worded and not function correctly as written. If Refuge is not creating such an allowance, the card does not work. The first sentence in bold lists the playability requirements:
- Discard an elf
- At the end of Organization Phase
- Using region cards with last one being a Wilderness

Since you don't reveal region cards until the M/H phase, the last playability requirement is impossible to meet (unless, again, you consider Refuge to create such an allowance with its text).
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Konrad Klar
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...or just do not confuse regions with region cards.
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the JabberwocK
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Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:40 am Yes.
Regions are in play all time.
Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:02 am A region is in play all time and it does not need to be represented by a card.
Can you provide a rule reference to support this? If there is such a rule, then the Netrep seems to be clearly in error with his answer in Digest 29.
Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:46 am ...or just do not confuse regions with region cards.
So far as I know, region cards are simply meant to represent regions for clarity. Is there any rule that states that region cards and regions are to be handled differently?
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Konrad Klar
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So far as I know, region cards are (were) used to commit a company using a region movement to use particular regions for its movement.
the Jabberwock wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:13 pm Konrad Klar wrote: ↑
30 Aug 2018, 09:02
A region is in play all time and it does not need to be represented by a card.

Can you provide a rule reference to support this? If there is such a rule, then the Netrep seems to be clearly in error with his answer in Digest 29.
No.
I can only say about some phenomenons that could result from negation of the statement.

Fallen Alatar's home site is any [-me_rl-] in [-me_rl-].
Buhr Widu normally qualifies as Fallen Alatar's home site.
But if Morgul Night is in play when Buhr Widu site comes into play it appears to be [-me_rl-] in [-me_sl-].
Frankly, I do not now whether it would fizzle a playing of Fallen Alatar, or not.
Surely, if Buhr Widu (or other site card located in Southern Rhovanion) would be in play, the attempt of playing Fallen Alatar could not be taken at all.
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Konrad Klar
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According to my sources:
[NetRep] Rulings Digest #29 wrote:[...]
4. Can a region be targeted to be changed if it is not in a site path
or a sites site path? E.G. Can I use a Master of Wood, Water and Hill
to change a Wilderness into a Shadow-land during the org. phase so I
can play Wondrous Maps in that region?
*** No. To target anything, that thing needs to be in play. When a
site is face down, its site path is not in play.
[...]
Answer is "No", but justification of the answer actually evades the question.
It justifies why the site path of face down site cannot be targeted.
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the JabberwocK
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:31 pm Fallen Alatar's home site is any [-me_rl-] in [-me_rl-].
Buhr Widu normally qualifies as Fallen Alatar's home site.
But if Morgul Night is in play when Buhr Widu site comes into play it appears to be [-me_rl-] in [-me_sl-].
Frankly, I do not now whether it would fizzle a playing of Fallen Alatar, or not.
Surely, if Buhr Widu (or other site card located in Southern Rhovanion) would be in play, the attempt of playing Fallen Alatar could not be taken at all.
I think that if Morgul Night is in play, Fallen Alatar may not come into play.

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:05 pm According to my sources:
[NetRep] Rulings Digest #29 wrote:[...]
4. Can a region be targeted to be changed if it is not in a site path
or a sites site path? E.G. Can I use a Master of Wood, Water and Hill
to change a Wilderness into a Shadow-land during the org. phase so I
can play Wondrous Maps in that region?
*** No. To target anything, that thing needs to be in play. When a
site is face down, its site path is not in play.
[...]
Answer is "No", but justification of the answer actually evades the question.
It justifies why the site path of face down site cannot be targeted.
The answer implies that regions are not in play until region cards are revealed, and thus they may not be targeted until that time.
Regions are part of the company's site path. What about the site's site path?

Let's say a player will move his company from The Lonely Mountain to Buhr Widu using region movement. Assume regions are not "always in play" as the NetRep implied. His M/H phase begins and he reveals the regions Northern Rhovanion and Southern Rhovanion as well as the Buhr Widu site. Now both Southern Rhovanion and Northern Rhovanion regions are "in play" and may be targeted. What about the site's site path....surely the site's site path is in play. Are the regions which make up that site path in play? May Heart of Mirkwood, Western Mirkwood, Anduin Vales and Wold and Foothills now be targeted since they are part of the site's site path which is now in play?

Perhaps this topic needs further clarification/erratum.
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Theo
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the Jabberwock wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:45 am Are the regions which make up that site path in play? May Heart of Mirkwood, Western Mirkwood, Anduin Vales and Wold and Foothills now be targeted since they are part of the site's site path which is now in play?
They are not. A site's site path does not specify any regions by name, and consists only of region symbols.
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Theo
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the Jabberwock wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:24 am
Theo wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:10 pm Girdle only targets the Wizardhaven and its region; the neighboring regions aren't targeted.
This is not true. Girdle also affects the neighboring regions.
I said targeted. Affecting is different.
CRF wrote:A target is an entity that an action is played out through. Enitities are only targets of an action if the action specifies those entities by number and type. Note that "the foo" counts as specifying one "foo."
...
Annotation 3: Long-events and certain other cards do not have targets because they are not played out through one specific entity, i.e., they generally affect an entire class of things.
(underline mine) "All neighboring regions" is a class of things.

---
the Jabberwock wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:24 am Are you saying that Refuge's card text is making an exception to the normal rule of revealing regions at the beginning of the M/H phase, thus it is creating an allowance for you to reveal your region cards during the Organization Phase?
Yes. The "(Play regions face up.)" is sufficient indication for me. Perhaps it should have been "(Reveal regions.)"
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the JabberwocK
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Theo wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:11 am
the Jabberwock wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:45 am Are the regions which make up that site path in play? May Heart of Mirkwood, Western Mirkwood, Anduin Vales and Wold and Foothills now be targeted since they are part of the site's site path which is now in play?
They are not. A site's site path does not specify any regions by name, and consists only of region symbols.
Well the NetRep answer in Digest 29 responding to the question about whether or not a region may be targeted makes this rather confusing, considering the answer "When a site is face down, its site path is not in play."
Theo wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:20 am
the Jabberwock wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:24 am
Theo wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:10 pm Girdle only targets the Wizardhaven and its region; the neighboring regions aren't targeted.
This is not true. Girdle also affects the neighboring regions.
I said targeted. Affecting is different.
How do you conclude that the Wizardhaven's region is "targeted" but the adjacent regions are not? I would understand saying the Wizardhaven itself is targeted, while all of the regions involved are merely affected. But I don't understand how you justify drawing a line between the Wizardhaven's region and the adjacent regions. Categorizing "all neighboring regions" as a class of things does not mean the Wizardhaven's region is targeted, but surrounding regions are not.
The Wizardhavenʹs [ [-me_ha-] ] region and all adjacent regions become Wilderness [ [-me_wi-] ].
They are mentioned in the same sentence and should be handled the same.
Theo wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:20 am
the Jabberwock wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:24 am Are you saying that Refuge's card text is making an exception to the normal rule of revealing regions at the beginning of the M/H phase, thus it is creating an allowance for you to reveal your region cards during the Organization Phase?
Yes. The "(Play regions face up.)" is sufficient indication for me. Perhaps it should have been "(Reveal regions.)"
Well this is one reasonable interpretation. I think it's unclear though. :?
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