Master of Wood, Water or Hill

The place to ask and debate all rules issues related to MECCG.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

the Jabberwock wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:46 am How do you conclude that the Wizardhaven's region is "targeted" but the adjacent regions are not? I would understand saying the Wizardhaven itself is targeted, while all of the regions involved are merely affected. But I don't understand how you justify drawing a line between the Wizardhaven's region and the adjacent regions. Categorizing "all neighboring regions" as a class of things does not mean the Wizardhaven's region is targeted, but surrounding regions are not.
The Wizardhavenʹs [ [-me_ha-] ] region and all adjacent regions become Wilderness [ [-me_wi-] ].
They are mentioned in the same sentence and should be handled the same.
CRF wrote:Note that "the foo" counts as specifying one "foo."
Ah, but perhaps "becoming" is not an action. (Also, one does not get to choose the Wizardhaven's region, only the Wizardhaven, so there is no targeting of regions either.) So I rescind; no regions are targeted.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

I believe that some of these discrepancies can be solved by (1) considering regions cards to not be separate from regions, (2) considering regions to only be in play when the corresponding region cards are in play, and (3) allowing region cards to be checked for conditions (eg, agent movement, playing Fallen Alatar, playing A Panoply of Wings), where the checked cards are "in play" (and affected by regional changes) but only for purposes of checking them.

I believe that region affecting cards only last for the duration of the card. Which is why the MW,W,H proposed errata is a good idea.

Girdle of Radagast could be used simply by checking the regions, and changing their region for that purpose only.

I don't see any reason for regions to always be in play when they are not used for movement or checking playability.



By the way, let me see if I have the issues straight:
(1) How long does MWWH affect the region? (Proposed errata says until the end of the turn).
-- I agree with the errata.

(2) Can MWWH be used to affect regions that are not in the moving companies sitepath?
-- No. They are not "in play" by my thinking above.

(2a) Does the site path need to be revealed or not?
-- It needs to be revealed. (Agrees with previous ruling)

(3) Should a player be able to play/dump this card for essentially "no effect" just to free up space in their hand?
-- I don't think players should be able to dump cards for no effect. It's not thematic. And if you want to dump it, then move a company and play it on the site path.

(4) But regions must always be in play because there are cards whose playability depends on the type of the region
-- That reasoning is too broad. Regions can merely be "treated as being in play" for the purposes of checking playability of other cards.

So, (a) playability based on region works as it should and (b) regions affecting cards cannot be played for essentially no effect.


User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Organization phase. A company is at Rivendell and Morgul Night is in play.
Player has A Panoply of Wings in hand and want to play Hour of Need.
Where is some nearest [-me_wi-] region?

From where the player has to know that Cardolan is [-me_wi-] (or [-me_sl-] ) if the region is not in play?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Would Morgul Night not also change the treatment of the Wilderness on the A Panoply of Wings card? :roll:

I'd say that if a site is not in play it can be neither tapped nor untapped as required by A Panoply of Wings, so only sites in play are candidates when using Hour of Need with this faction. This would have some serious implications for Reluctant Final Parting, though, so maybe not what was intended? Anyway, sites in play (and face-up) have a "region in which the site is found" as shown on the card, which would mean that the site's region is available for alteration by other effects.

That said, at the very least we must be able to determine at least the connectivity of regions (which seems a little strange if those regions aren't in play) to be able to count the number between sites. But counting connected regions is not affecting those regions, so it seems sufficiently consistent to have the notion that sites and their regions and region connections always exist in the sense of being available for referencing, even if they aren't in play.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

If I understand you: "playable at tapped or untapped" is restriction rather than permission.
For Rangers of North that does not have such phrase, a tapped/untapped state of Bree is not important to determine whether the faction may be normally played at Bree, at least for purposes of Hour of Need. Bree card may be even in discard pile or not in player's possession.
But for A Panoply of Wings it is the problem. Bree is neither "tapped or untapped" if not in play.
Right?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

My fundamental assertion is that "in play" means "on the table". Although sometimes cards are on the table but are treated as being "out of play".

Of course the map or region cards must be consulted (and placed on the table, "in play") to determine adjacency and type, and would at least be "treated as if in play" such that they are affected by Morgul Night (my assertion) or actually be "always in play" (your assertion). Otherwise the game cannot be played.

But I don't think it makes sense for the map (eg all regions) to be considered to be "in play" just to enable MoWWoH to be dumped from your hand without affecting your own site path, or in the case where you have no wildernesses in the path.

Why create a broader allowance when a more limited allowance is sufficient? Foresight of site path should be rewarded with card playability and lack of foresight should be punished by clogging your hand. Lack of foresight of site path should not be rewarded with playability (especially for region-changing hazards).



User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:39 pm If I understand you: "playable at tapped or untapped" is restriction rather than permission.
For Rangers of North that does not have such phrase, a tapped/untapped state of Bree is not important to determine whether the faction may be normally played at Bree, at least for purposes of Hour of Need. Bree card may be even in discard pile or not in player's possession.
But for A Panoply of Wings it is the problem. Bree is neither "tapped or untapped" if not in play.
Right?
Right; current working theory. And I'd say it serves as both a permission and restriction.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Some things exist and have some state not only when they are "used".
I cannot write "used" without quotation marks, because regions are "used" in very specific sense.
Some sites in play are located in regions. And it is written on the sites cards.
Some sites not in play are located in regions. And it is also written on the sites cards.

But whether the site is in play or not, players need to know in which region it is located for purposes of cards like Trouble on All Borders.

There is [NetRep] Rulings Digest #29 Q/A 4, that says "No" to question regarding a region not in path (before path will be constructed), and justifies it in the way that when a site is face down, its [site's, company's] site path is not in play.

Which problems the answer solves? How natural is its justification?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

I agree with NetRep #29 q/a 4.

It's worth nothing that NetRep #54 states:
Re: Withered Lands
is it possible to play this card on the on the path of a site, even if the company doesn´t travel through on of those regions?
*** Yes, both the company's and the site's site path are in play and targetable.
To me, this further suggests that not-played regions are not "in play." Because you would not need to resort to the sites sitepath if you could just target any region you liked (if regions we're always in play).

So, at least cards that target regions must be targeting a region in play, on the table via normal mechanisms of the game (ie a white circle symbol printed in a piece of cardboard that has been put in play via rules of the game). If you can't point to a particular circle printed on cardboard how can we even play this game?

In searching for Rulings on various region-affecting cards, I have seen nothing that suggests that regions are always in play.

As for MoWWoH, you don't have to target the region cards, but you at least have to target the site's sitepath. This allows you to essentially dump the MoWWoH if using region movement.

However, still unclear is whether region-affecting cards affect non-played regions whose type must be verified for purposes of playability (eg does Morgul Night affect playability of A Panoply of Wings or Hidden Haven) outside the movement/hazard phase.

Now, let's assume that regions are NOT in play unless they are revealed as region cards or present on a site's site path. Let's also assume that merely having the indication of a region in a site card does NOT mean that the corresponding region is in play (I believe these are correct rules). Which cards would be broken?

Cards that concern the region type during phases other than the movement/hazard phase: Stench of Mordor, A Panoply of Wings, Black Rain, Hidden Haven, Wild Hounds.

For these cards we can decide either:

(1) the regions are affected despite not being played. Which would require a rule update (when playability of a card is based on region type, verify the region type using a region card and apply any effects to the region type as if it were in play)

(2) the regions are NOT affected. We could clarify that playability is based on the "normal" type of the region. We could errata eg "a site that is normally in a wilderness". We would still need to verify using a region card/map.

I'm still in favor of (1)

Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

CDavis7M wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:15 pm However, still unclear is whether region-affecting cards affect non-played regions whose type must be verified for purposes of playability (eg does Morgul Night affect playability of A Panoply of Wings or Hidden Haven) outside the movement/hazard phase.
Cards not in play can definitely be affected by other effects; otherwise any card that searches/moves cards from maindeck/sideboard/discard wouldn't work, for example. Nothing about non-targeting effects (such as from Morgul Night) limits it to only in-play regions. In contrast, there are numerous examples of cards that are restricted to affect only in-play classes of things.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

I don't see how cards that let you search your deck, sideboard, or view cards in hand are similar to region-affecting cards. Smoke Rings can target cards that are not in play because it specifically says "from your sideboard or discard pile". Master of Wood Water or Hill does not say "a wilderness in play or in your site deck". Therefore, I think MoWWoH does not enable itself to affect out of play cards while Smoke Rings specifically does enable this functionality.

For cards that affect "all" regions (morgul night), the region type change could only have a resulting effect on the game if it was affecting the site path (in which case the regions would be in play) OR (depending on what we're discussing here) for playability of the 5 cards mentioned above. So, whether or not non-targeting effects such as Morgul Night are limited to in-play regions only matters for playability of those 5 cards. And I agree with you that the regions, even if not-played and in the site deck, SHOULD be affected (at least for thematic reasons). But I think this requires a rules-clarification on checking regions for playability.

Morgul Night reducing playability of A Panoply of Wings rewards foresight. Letting MoWWoH target regions in the site-deck is rewarding poor-planning.

Side note: Some cards refer to what the site-type "normally" is (eg normally a border-hold). Of course the site type is in play because the site is in play. I haven't seen any reference to what a region-type "normally" is. But if any card did mention playability dependent on what the region normally is, that would support the notion that out-of-play regions not in the site path could be affected by region-changing effects (eg the notion that regions are always in play). While absence of this cannot support my thoughts above, I just wanted to mention it in case someone else was looking.

Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

CDavis7M wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:49 am I don't see how cards that let you search your deck, sideboard, or view cards in hand are similar to region-affecting cards. Smoke Rings can target cards that are not in play because it specifically says "from your sideboard or discard pile". Master of Wood Water or Hill does not say "a wilderness in play or in your site deck". Therefore, I think MoWWoH does not enable itself to affect out of play cards while Smoke Rings specifically does enable this functionality.
Yes, I agree that both Smoke Rings and Master of Wood, Water, or Hill are cards that target, and the wording of Smoke Rings supercedes the normal rule restrictions regarding targeting cards not in play.

And yes, perhaps the examples about searching/moving to other locations were poor, since such cards generally specify the locations they can affect.

Instead, what about the A Strident Spawn effect: "Each of your Half‐orcs requires one less point of influence to control." I would claim that this affects your Half-orcs even in your hand, such that if you have a 4-mind half-orc in hand and only 3 general influence then you are still able to play it under general influence, despite needing to have enough general influence available to control the character to even initiate the play.

Or the Glove of Radagast effects: "Any non‐unique ally with 1 mind (a copy of which he does not already control) is considered playable with Radagast at his site. This ally may be taken from your discard pile or hand." If "this ally [among the set so considered playable]" did not include those in your discard pile or hand, how would being able to take it from your discard pile or hand be useful?
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

I don't believe that cards in hand should be considered in play as they have not been played.

As for Strident Spawn, you can play a character beyond influence but they must return to your hand at the end of organization if they still go beyond it. Regardless of that rule, would the game framework not work like this?

1. Declare 3-mind Ill Favored Fellow (half orc)
2. Declare mind-reducing effect of Strident Spawn
-----
3. Resolve mind-reducing effect
4. Resolve 2-mind Ill Favored Fellow

This is the same reasoning by which Open to the Summons and Thrall enable a player to Declare an unplayable character, apply effects from OttS or Thrall, and then Resolved the character.


I don't understand the hypothetical involving Glove of Radagast...

Is the hypothetical - how can you check if an ally in the discard pile is playable via Glove of Radagast (eg it has 1 mind and is not played) unless the discard pile is in play?

Surely it must be possible to use Glove to search your discard pile for a card and declare it. If it's a 2-mind ally then it is not playable and is returned. If it is an Assassin hazard then it is not a 1-mind ally and goes back to the discard pile. Though, presumably we are all playing in good faith.

1. Declare that you take the playable ally from your discard
2. Declare Glove of Radagast effect that an ally is playable
3. Resolve playability - the ally is now playable
4. Resolve effect of taking the ally from your discard pile/hand
---
5. Declare 1-mind ally retrieved by Glove. Conditions of Glove's playability are met.
6. Resolve ally
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

1.
In starter and special movement some elements of company's site path exist only when a company is moving.
Region symbols that do not correlate with any named regions.

2.
I strongly disagree that Smoke Rings targets anything, i.e that a resource or a character in play deck or sideboard must be chosen at declaration of Smoke Rings.
It also does not affect the resource/character, likewise a card that allows/causes a playing other card does not affect the other card.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad, I agree with you on both points. My use of "target" was sloppy and incorrect.

Though, I still think NetRep #29 Q/A #4 provides the right conclusion even if the justification assumes our question here.

Q: Can a region be targeted if it is not in a site path or in a site's site-path?
A: No. To target anything, that thing needs to be in play.

This is consistent with the CRF indicating that cards cannot be played for no effect. The potential for an effect later on is not an effect at the time of play.

Plus, if I play MoWWoH and my opponent asks which region I am choosing, I should have to point to a little white circle (on a region card, on a sites sitepath, or even(?) on a special movement card effect)

Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk

Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions & Debate (unofficial)”