Council of Elrond

Are you obliged to exchange your minion / to hero versions, if for some reason your FW overt company turns covert?

I mean, when you're already at the site. Say, you move there with 1 Orc, Orc dies (or moves away next turn), must you then replace the site? Couldn't find anything to substantiate this.

btw, if you replace it, does it come into play in the same state (tapped/untapped)?

MEWH, Movement wrote:A fallen-wizard's non-overt companies must use hero sites for sites that are not Ruins & Lairs.

MEWH, Movement wrote:The play of certain cards can change the type of sites that your companies may use [. . .] When this happens, immediately exchange any affected site cards already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type.

If the company becomes non-overt, the exchange happens immediately, and must happen.

CRF, Fallen Wizard wrote:When a site is replaced with a site of the opposite alignment, the new site comes into play in the same orientation as the other site.

...which leads to undefined situation when player does not have a corresponding hero version of the site in Location Deck.

Hmm, this line refers to cards/hazards explicitly changing the site type your companies may use, not to any change in company composition.
The conclusion does not logically follow from A and B.

It might make it plausible as far as the change-mechanism is concerned, but not definite on the necessity to exchange a site already in play. Consider theme also: if I come associating with an Orc, will they let me enter next time when the Orc is back home?

If the play of some card makes it so you no longer have an orc/troll in your company, then it is a card which has changed which site type your company may use. It has not done it directly, but it has still done it.

The first quoted rule is strong enough to support instant exchange; the second merely reinforces it.

@ Konrad: Yes, that is a loophole. On the other hand, forcing a player to have to have both versions of a site is rather brutal on their pocket money.

Bandobras Took wrote:If the play of some card makes it so you no longer have an orc/troll in your company, then it is a card which has changed which site type your company may use. It has not done it directly, but it has still done it.

The first quoted rule is strong enough to support instant exchange; the second merely reinforces it.

Short: lack of card that forces to use minion version of site counts as card that forces to use hero verion of site.

Bandobras Took wrote:@ Konrad: Yes, that is a loophole. On the other hand, forcing a player to have to have both versions of a site is rather brutal on their pocket money.

Brutal or not - sometimes opposite vesion is used as rescue site.

Hmm, if that is true, then that means you can also provide me with a definition for what it means to "use" a card/site in meccg? And the immediate exchange clause should somehow be in it.

In my opinion, the fact that the exchange clause is in the movement section has some meaning (hence I posed this question). You rather use a card at the moment of playing it. On the other hand, there is the distinction between playing an item and using it. But is staying at a site and not doing anything there using it?

The White Hand, Overview, Sites wrote:There are four Fallen-wizard site cards: Isengard, The White Towers, Rhosgobel, and
Deep Mines. These site cards have a light gray background.
Unless stated otherwise on a card, a Fallen-wizard player may use these sites instead
of the hero/minion versions.
Most Fallen-wizard companies use hero site cards when moving to non-Fallenwizard
sites (see the Movement section for exceptions).

Underlines mine.

"abc company use xyz site" is compact form of "player use xyz site for abc company".
Like "Two attacks, all against the same character" is compact form of "Two attacks, all strikes must be assigned to the same character".

Technically an attacks are against company, not against particular character, a company does not use a site, site is used to represent company's location/movement (not moving company must be located somewhere, even if it cannot take any activity).

Treat above as an attempt of reconstruction the sense from ambiguous records.

Ok, that meaning of the use of a site makes sense (though the quote has little to do with it).
So I can accept that line of reasoning.
Still, once you're at the site, that site card represents the site equally whether you're at the minion or hero version.
And it remains a fact that only in the context of moving (i.e. selecting a site) and of hazards/cards that change site type, any need to exchange the version is (explicitly) mentioned.

Let's consider it one more case in which the need to formulate a general rule as tight as possible did not seem necessary. After all, adding the exchange clause to the general rule would have done the trick. Instead this clarification is only given for specific cases.

Pity, I liked the idea of using a single Orc travelling around to make squatting covert companies use minion versions, without resorting to Plotting Ruin (7 sp) or HGC. Would be alot quicker and saves slots.

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:Ok, that meaning of the use of a site makes sense (though the quote has little to do with it).

Only purpose of quote was to show that rules use "player may use site" and "company use site" interchangeably.

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:And it remains a fact that only in the context of moving (i.e. selecting a site) and of hazards/cards that change site type, any need to exchange the version is (explicitly) mentioned.

Not exactly. OK - it is nowhere explicitly written what happens if a card that change the alignment of sites that can be used cease to be in play.
However:

White Hand wrote:When this happens, immediately exchange any affected site cards already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type.

Site cards are in play after they was selected.

Related to the original question:

A fw player has a hero company A with just men characters sitting at a hero site X and an overt company B with orcs at any site Y.
Now the overt company B wants to move to site X. Company B would usually need to use the minion version of site X in order to move there. Am I right if I assume that company B is not allowed to move to the site where company A is present because the hero site version is in play and and therefore the minion site version could not be played?
Or is it possible to announce that company B will be moving to a site in play (even if this would be a hero site the company normally must not use)? If both companies then later combine at the site the site card will immediately be replaced by the minion version of that site?

Shapeshifter wrote:Related to the original question:

A fw player has a hero company A with just men characters sitting at a hero site X and an overt company B with orcs at any site Y.
Now the overt company B wants to move to site X. Company B would usually need to use the minion version of site X in order to move there. Am I right if I assume that company B is not allowed to move to the site where company A is present because the hero site version is in play and and therefore the minion site version could not be played?
Or is it possible to announce that company B will be moving to a site in play (even if this would be a hero site the company normally must not use)? If both companies then later combine at the site the site card will immediately be replaced by the minion version of that site?

Rules are silent about such situation. And I think that answer cannot be implicitly concluded from other rules.
I fear that any ruling (existing/future?) that will cover this problem, will be arbitrary ruling.