Council of Elrond

As it states clearly it says that he can have 2 followers that requires no direct influence to control. And it says that these followers "may" be brought into play during separate organisation phases. Is it possible to bring 2 of them into play the same turn? If not why does the text use the word "may" when it´s impossible to bring both of them into play the same turn?

Ugluk75 wrote:If not why does the text use the word "may" when it´s impossible to bring both of them into play the same turn?

Perhaps becasue player is not obliged to play second follower if first was played during one of its previous organization phases.

But then, can I play 2 followers the same turn?

Good question. Nobody is actually sure how Ringwraith Followers work, to be honest.

Bandobras Took wrote:Good question. Nobody is actually sure how Ringwraith Followers work, to be honest.

I hope someone can tell me for sure, it´s very important for my deck. I play with 3 Witch-King in the main deck. Then all other Ringwraiths in the sideboard and 3 Back to the fray.

Ugluk75 wrote:But then, can I play 2 followers the same turn?

There is only one organization phase in turn. Unless someone make incredible trick to change this - no.
Do you mean "one RW follower for The With-king ability and second for other card/ability"?
RW followers are characters. Playing them subject the same restrictions as playing other characters (in addition to the restrictions regarding playing RW followers).
During organization phase player may play one character or may discard one character.

Konrad Klar wrote:RW followers are characters. Playing them subject the same restrictions as playing other characters (in addition to the restrictions regarding playing RW followers).

That may be true, but it is at the very least debatable. The section under Ringwraith Followers list the conditions that must be met to play them, and those conditions are separate from the conditions for playing normal characters. Though the standard rules call them exceptions to the restrictions, the wording of the section in the Standard Rules is unequivocal. You may play Ringwraith Followers when the conditions outlined are met. Those conditions mention neither a phase requirement nor that you may not have played any other character. Playing Ringwraith followers is not mentioned at all under the restrictions in the Starter Rules on bringing characters into play. They only mention playing non-Ringwraith followers and revealing your Ringwraith. Those two actions only allow for one character play in the organization phase, but neither of them applies to Ringwraith Followers.

Thus a person might be sure of their opinion, but it is never sure that their opinion is what was intended.

Bandobras Took wrote:That may be true, but it is at the very least debatable.

Thank for pointing it. Maybe I should add more often "in my opinion" to my posts to distinguish debatable things from obvious things (even if both are true in my opinion).

Bandobras Took wrote:Those conditions mention neither a phase requirement nor that you may not have played any other character. Playing Ringwraith followers is not mentioned at all under the restrictions in the Starter Rules on bringing characters into play.

So now, why in my opinion a phase requirement nor that you may not have played any other character (during the same organization phase) are omitted:
Because defaults does not need be mentioned.
If you look at the Characters, Orc & Trolls, Special Orc & Troll Rules sections of White Hand rules you can see that above requirements are not mentioned too.

I think that for all three cases (FW's Orc/Trolls, FW's characters, RW followers) when they can be played would be reconstructed in the same manner. We know that they all are characters, so if special rules regarding playing them does not mention when they can be played whe should assume "as other characters".

I won't debate with you so much as let you debate for me:

Konrad Klar wrote:Thrall of the Voice does not circumvent specifically any restriction concerning "which character may be played". It repleaces that restrictions entirely by its own restrictions. Actually the Thrall of the Voice even does not need "(including a minion agent)" phrase to be used in conjunction with agents. Even if Fallen Wizard player would be specifically restricted from playing agents (as he is restricted from playing Orcs and Trolls).

I believe that the Ringwraith Follower conditions for play are a replacement for the normal rules. Part of the reason for this is the following restriction:

Your Ringwraith is at a Darkhaven or he is at the Ringwraith follower's home site.

Characters may already be played at Darkhavens and home sites, and if your Ringwraith is in play, character play is already restricted to the site the Ringwraith is at.

Also, the restriction that the Ringwraith Follower's card be in your hand would seem redundant.

Both of these redundancies leads me to believe they wished to describe all conditions that must be met for a Ringwraith Follower to be played, and that these replace the general character play requirements, which do not refer to Ringwraith Followers. Specific phase and number per turn are not part of these conditions, but are rather dependent on the ability permitting Follower play in the first place.

Regarding the question of two followers in the same org phase using the Witch-king's ability: the answer is definitely no. There is no default ability to play Ringwraith Followers, and the WK's ability only permits the play of RW Followers during separate organization phases. Either or both may be controlled with no influence cost, but that phrase has no bearing on whether they are able to be played.

As far as the deck goes, They Ride Together is probably the best choice.

So you are implying then that other RW's may play multiple followers actually, but WK may not?
how bout Khamul? He actually lists: "You may play this follower during the organization phase." Seems totally redundant, unless you may also do it during other phases...

Bandobras Took wrote:Both of these redundancies leads me to believe they wished to describe all conditions that must be met for a Ringwraith Follower to be played, and that these replace the general character play requirements, which do not refer to Ringwraith Followers.

So if it would be true, then there is one another option to play two RW Followers in the same organization phase: one for The With-king's ability and one for Uvatha The Ringwraith's ability (plus another character, because both abilities does not use standard slot "one character in organization phase).

Bandobras Took wrote:Regarding the question of two followers in the same org phase using the Witch-king's ability: the answer is definitely no. There is no default ability to play Ringwraith Followers, and the WK's ability only permits the play of RW Followers during separate organization phases. Either or both may be controlled with no influence cost, but that phrase has no bearing on whether they are able to be played.

And without "You may bring these followers into play during separate organization phases", it would be unclear whether The With-king is even able to play them, or merely control them without influence (and must play them using other method).


P.S.
Such redundancy as stating that appropriate Ringwraith card must be in player's hand leads me to believe in mess in rules rather than special intention of authors.
P.P.S.
For Thrall of The Voice: I believe that it works in that way, because its text is explicit (eh... seems to be explicit to me), regardless of intentions of authors.
For RW Followers their intentions must be reconstructed, due to not enough clarity of rules.

EDIT:
"due to not enough of clarity" -> "due to not enough clarity".

Ok, I guess that I can´t play 2 the same turn then. But I still think it strange that the card text says that he may bring them into play during separate organisation phases. Why wouldn´t he since he can´t play them during the same turn. That opinion will join me til the day I die .

But I can play Uvatha and another RW the same turn as followers? Uvathas ability overrides the rule about one character /turn?

Ugluk75 wrote:But I can play Uvatha and another RW the same turn as followers? Uvathas ability overrides the rule about one character /turn?

If rules regarding playing RW Followers are separate from standard rules regarding playing characters (are not subset of them), then also "one character in organization phase" does not apply to the RW followers.

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:So you are implying then that other RW's may play multiple followers actually, but WK may not?
how bout Khamul? He actually lists: "You may play this follower during the organization phase." Seems totally redundant, unless you may also do it during other phases...

Any RW may play multiple followers -- all you need is They Ride Together. The Witch-King's innate ability to play two followers specifies that they be brought into play in separate organization phases.

Since there is no innate ability to play Ringwraith followers, any such ability stipulates the conditions wherein it is activated. If Khamul merely said "You may play a Ringwraith Follower under Khamul's control," then it would be subject only to standard RW follower rules. His ability is designed to be limited to the Org. Phase.

Konrad Klar wrote:

Bandobras Took wrote:Both of these redundancies leads me to believe they wished to describe all conditions that must be met for a Ringwraith Follower to be played, and that these replace the general character play requirements, which do not refer to Ringwraith Followers.

So if it would be true, then there is one another option to play two RW Followers in the same organization phase: one for The With-king's ability and one for Uvatha The Ringwraith's ability (plus another character, because both abilities does not use standard slot "one character in organization phase).

Bandobras Took wrote:Regarding the question of two followers in the same org phase using the Witch-king's ability: the answer is definitely no. There is no default ability to play Ringwraith Followers, and the WK's ability only permits the play of RW Followers during separate organization phases. Either or both may be controlled with no influence cost, but that phrase has no bearing on whether they are able to be played.

And without "You may bring these followers into play during separate organization phases", it would be unclear whether The With-king is even able to play them, or merely control them without influence (and must play them using other method).

Yep, that's my opinion in a nutshell.

P.S.
Such redundancy as stating that appropriate Ringwraith card must be in player's hand leads me to believe in mess in rules rather than special intention of authors.

Can't argue with that.