Black Vapour VS. Marvels Told

[Containerguy]

On our monthly tournament, we encountered the following situation (in essence)

A: Spider of Morlat was in play as permanent event (Player 1)
B: (Player 2) moves his company through Southern Mirkwood -> as a result, the company is attacked by the Spider of the Morlat
C: (Player 2) plays Marvels Told to remove the Spider of the Morlat
D: (Player 1) counters with Black Vapour.

Wording of Black Vapour: Target any effect (declared earlier in the same chain of effects) that would cancel a spider attack. Make a roll and add the attack's prowess. If the result is greater than 14, the effect is canceled and the attack receives +1 prowess.
Alternatively, +1 prowess to a spider attack.
This card may be revealed as an on-guard card for either effect.

As from my perception, Black Vapour is a valid counter to Marvels Told, since it has a effect that would cancel a spider attack (the automatic attack of the Spider of the Morlat)
In our tournament, we could not reach a decision and threw a die to resolve the case, but we are curious to know, what the official resolution would be.

[Vastor Peredhil]

It does not cancel the attack, but removes a card that creates an attack as a side effect, so I believe it is NOT a valid counter to it

yours Nicolai

p.s. which playgroup in which country as I seem not to know who is behind this Containerguy

[Bandobras Took]

Removing an automatic-attack does not directly affect it, although cancelling does.

Removing an attack is not the same thing as cancelling; Vastor is correct.

[Containerguy]

Removing an automatic-attack does not directly affect it, although cancelling does.

Removing an attack is not the same thing as cancelling; Vastor is correct.

Thanks for your post. but I think. it does not apply here, since the attack does not happen in the site phase, but in the M/H phase.

I know, it´s kind of nitpicking, but since Black Vapour is making reference to "any effect that would cancel...." I assume it is a valid counter, but honestly I have not found any evidence for a solid decision (in one direction or the other)

To Nicolai: Council of Pelagir: we are having a monthly Scenario tournament

[Konrad Klar]

Marvels Told itsef does not cancel an attack. What cancels the attack is the lack of Spider of Morlat at resolution of action: "company moving in Southern Mirkwood, Heart of Mirkwood, Woodland Realm, Dagorlad, or Brown Lands faces a Spider attack of 2 strikes with 10 prowess".
Exactly reason is:

A card causing an action as a result of a passive condition must be in play when the
action resolves, or else the action is canceled.

The lack of Spider of Morlat is not declared when Marvels Told is declared. What is declared is discarding of the Spider of Morlat (and cc-2 made by target sage).
The Black Vapour can target a declared effect (action), not result of the declared effect (action).

Similar example would be removing from active play a character from an attacked one-character company. The attack would be cancelled due to lack of attacked company. But Call of Home, or Weariness of the Heart does not create the action "cancel attack" and could not be targeted by Black Vapour.

[Containerguy]

Thanks for the clarification Konrad ! Sounds reasonable to me.
All of our tournaments group was puzzeling about the ruling for this case, so it´s good to know.

[Bandobras Took]

Cancel in a general language sense is not the same as "cancel" as used by the game.

[Konrad Klar]

Cancel in a general language sense is not the same as "cancel" as used by the game.

Right.
However CRF (not me) says:

"A card causing an action as a result of a passive condition must be in play when the
action resolves, or else the action is canceled."

I think that phrase "the action cannot resolve" should be used instead.
At the time when a company starts moving "in Southern Mirkwood, Heart of Mirkwood, Woodland Realm, Dagorlad, or Brown Lands" the "Spider attack of 2 strikes with 10 prowess " is merely declared. It is too early to cancel it. And this is a primary issue.
Eventual canceling of the spider attack would be possible when action from Spider of Morlat would be successfully resolved in its chain of effects (if this action cannot resolve, the company is not even considered faced a spider attack in its history).

Anyway I maintain: Black Vapour (or Prowess of Age) can only cancel actions that cancel an attack, not actions whose result would cancel the attack (and obviously cannot cancel the result itself).

[Bandobras Took]

The action of creating an attack is canceled. The attack itself is not canceled.

[Containerguy]

The action of creating an attack is canceled. The attack itself is not canceled.

I´m still uncertain, as the text of Black Vapour is refering to "any effect" that would cancel a spider attack.
Since removing Spider of Morlat with the Marvels told has the effect that a spider attack would be canceled, I think that "effect" may be targeted

[Bandobras Took]

No. Only a card or rule which states that it cancels an attack cancels an attack.

If you respond to the play of a creature card by lowering the hazard limit so that the play of the creature card fizzles, you have not canceled the attack.

Here's another example of a difference:

tap Enruned Shield to cause one strike against bearer to be ineffectual (i.e., it doesn't fail and it is not successful).

Cancel one strike against the Hobbit.

In the first case, the strike goes away without doing anything. In the second case, the strike is canceled. Even though the result is effectively the same, the means are different. It is for this reason that Enruned Shield can be used on the strike from Lucky Search while Halfling Stealth cannot.

[Konrad Klar]

Declaration of the action from Spider of Morlat is comparable to playing of creature (e.g. Cave-Drake). At this point the Cave-Drake is declared, so player cannot cancel its attack (it eventualy will be possible later, if Cave-Drake succesfully resolve). However player may try to prevent the Cave-Drake from resolving; he may try to change region symbols on path, or type of site to that Cave-Drake was keyed, or he may try to lower Hazard Limit. Thats all does not count as canceling of the attack. If such attempt will be successfull, the company will not be even considered faced the Cave-Drake.

Similarly if a company moving through Southern Mirkwood, Heart of Mirkwood, Woodland Realm, Dagorlad, or Brown Lands and Spider of Morlat is in play (as permanent-event) a player cannot play Coancelment, or Escape at this point (and his opponent cannot play Flies and Spiders, or Black Vapour - for any of its effects). Players can try to prevent the action caused by Spider of Morlat from resolving*.
Eventual attempt to cancel (or modify) the spider attack will be possible not sooner than after resolution of action caused by Spider of Morlat.

*)[some extras alias mumbo jumbo]

There are two options of preventing the action caused by passive condition from resolving:
- remove passive condition itself,
- remove a card that causes action triggered by passive conition.

In case of Spider of Morlat the passive condition is "company moving in Southern Mirkwood, Heart of Mirkwood, Woodland Realm, Dagorlad, or Brown Lands". It is hardly possible to remove it in other way than by removing a company, or returning it to the site of orbigin (in some cases hazard player can "rescue" the company by playing Chance f Being Lost that can move away the company from affected regions).
[/some extras alias mumbo jumbo]

[Thorsten the Traveller]

This game once started as a cool idea from some dudes in a company that wrote role-playing games (called ICE). They saw Magic: The Nonsense, and they thought: mjummie, money! and also: we can do this a lot better!

Apparently they were wrong? About the money for sure, but hey, about the rules, they couldn't have foreseen Konrad Klar coming

[Bandobras Took]

The lesson to be learned is that a consistent and simple rules framework attracts players. Ones with hair-splitting discussions of annotations as a matter of course does not.

[Morgul_Rat]

One day Bandobras and Konrad should sit down together and re-write the entire rule book and re-word every card to make life easier for all of us (except maybe them, haha). Then try to get the license to renew MECCG...I know that is never going to happen (the licensing) but it would be awesome and this great game would really take off again. Keep up the good work guys...I am trying to learn as much as I can!!!