A Small Question -- Orders from Lugburz and By the RW's Word

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Bandobras Took
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Orders From Lugburz wrote:Playable on a company. May be played with a starting company in lieu of a minor item. This company may contain a Troll leader in addition to another leader. +1 to all corruption checks by followers of Troll leaders in this company. Discard if Ren is your Ringwraith or when a leader leaves the company. Cannot be duplicated on a given company.
By The Ringwraith's Word wrote:Playable during the organization phase on one of your other characters at the same Darkhaven as your Ringwraith. The character: becomes a leader (if not already), receives +4 direct influence against characters in his company, and cannot be discarded by a body check. Discard at any time if there is a character in his company with a higher mind. Cannot be duplicated by a given player.
If I use By the Ringwraith's Word to make a RW follower a Leader, may I use Orders from Lugburz to include a Troll Leader in the company as well? Outside a darkhaven, I mean?
Marric
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I don't think so...

you need to follow the normal rules of company composition. Extra to that, Orders from Lugburz allows you to put a troll leader in a company with another leader, but everything else has to be fulfilled, too (no orcs with elves etc...which includes normal characters in a company with your ringwraith...)
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Bandobras Took
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It does go out of its way to specify Troll leader, though.

It doesn't just say the company may contain an extra leader. It says a company with a leader may also contain a Troll leader.

That's what started me thinking. The way it's worded has at least the possibility of cutting through every company composition rule -- so long as there's a leader in the original company.
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Konrad Klar
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I agree with Marric.
I you as FW play Open to The Summons, you may play agent minion on Wizardhaven. This does not mean you may play any agent on Wizardhaven and under any conditions (with mind greater than 5, regardless of GI or DI, effect of Mask Torn etc.).
Extra possibility does not negate general restrictions, unless stated otherwise on card.
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Bandobras Took
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Open to the Summons wrote:Playable on a minion company. One agent minion may be played with target company at a Darkhaven - place this card with the agent.
Open to the summons lets an agent minion be played. This is entirely different from Orders which says:
This company may contain a Troll leader in addition to another leader.
Orders from Lugburz specifically states that the company may contain a Troll Leader. This cannot refer to anything other than company composition rules. As I see it, so long as you've fulfilled the requirement (that the company contain a leader) the ability kicks in -- the company may now also contain a Troll leader, regardless of company composition rules.
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Konrad Klar
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the company may now also contain a Troll leader, regardless of company composition rules.
Such approach means also company size limit outside haven is ignored. Because "This company may contain a Troll leader in addition to another leader" rest does not count. One exception of company composition rules leads to other exceptions.
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Bandobras Took
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That's also a different question.

Company size rules (maximum number of characters) have nothing to do with company composition rules (what kind of characters).
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Konrad Klar
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CRF, Turn Sequence, Movement/Hazard Phase, General
If companies would join at the end of the movement/hazard phase such that the company composition rules are violated, one company of the hazard player's choice must return to its site of origin.
So if resulting company would have size 8 or more, companies may join freely?
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Bandobras Took
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I can't be blamed for the CRF. :)
MELE Starter Rules; Characters and Companies. wrote:During play, you may organize your characters into groups called ‘companies’. A company’s size is equal to the number of characters in it. A company is limited to a size of seven.
This is simply under the character and company rules. However, under the actual heading of "Limitations on Company Composition," there's:
Limitations on Company Composition
Unless at a Darkhaven, a Ringwraith may not be in a company with other characters.
In the standard rules, under the same heading
LIMITATIONS ON COMPANY COMPOSITION
There are three other limitations on the types of characters that can be in a company.

• Unless at a Darkhaven, an Orc or a Troll cannot be in a company that contains an Elf, a Dwarf, or a Dúnadan - and vice versa.

• Unless at a Darkhaven, your Ringwraith’s company may only contain your Ringwraith and Ringwraith followers (see pages 34-5).

• Unless at a Darkhaven, a company may only contain one leader. A leader is a character with the keyword “leader,” in its text box.

These limitations also apply to moving companies.

Note: If two companies end up at a non-Darkhaven site and combining those companies would violate the limitations on company composition, one of the companies that just moved must return to its site of origin. Similarly, an effect that causes such a violation is cancelled (e.g., We Have Come to Kill).
Company size is treated separately from company composition in the rules. So again, the question remains.

It may be helpful to bring up Orders from the Great Demon, the "Balrog" version.
Balrog specific. Playable on a company. May be played with a starting company in lieu of a minor item. This company may contain an additional leader who does not count against the company size maximum.
Circumvents company composition and company size rules. On the other hand, the Balrog doesn't have to worry about mixing up races -- he can't have elf, dunadan, etc. characters. Likewise, there's no card that makes the Balrog a leader.

Orders from Lugburz differs in that it does nothing about company size but has to do a bigger job circumventing company composition. Normally, you cannot have a Troll and a Dunadan at the same site. But if they are both leaders and Orders from Lugburz has been played on the company, the phrase "The company may contain a Troll Leader" seems like it would apply -- and cut through both racial and leader company composition limitations.
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Konrad Klar
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Bandobras Took wrote:It doesn't just say the company may contain an extra leader. It says a company with a leader may also contain a Troll leader.
I see such difference:

"the company may contain an extra leader."
is less restrictive than
"a company with a leader may also contain a Troll leader."
In second case race of second leader is restricted to Troll.

However if you see text of Orders from Lugburz as superseding all three limitation on company composition rules, what in your opinion would be text which supersede only one rule:
"Unless at a Darkhaven, a company may only contain one leader. A leader is a character with the keyword “leader,” in its text box."
?
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Bandobras Took
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Hypothetically speaking, a text such as "The company may contain an additional leader. All other limitations on company composition still apply."

So I guess the two possible interpretations, then, are

1) The use of the word Troll is meant simply to prevent an extra Orc Leader; or

2) The use of the word Troll is meant to overcome the racial limits on company composition.

I'll agree that 2) is unlikely, but the card can be read that way.

It's possible that they forgot they had a card for making non-orc/troll leaders when they created Orders from Lugburz. :)
Sauron
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Many cards can be read in different ways.

Take Iron Shield of Old. It could be read that you can play it at "an underdeeps shadow-hold" or ruins or lairs. Or it can be read correctly as "an underdeeps shadow-hold or ruins and lairs"
Jambo
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Can you play "By the Ringwraith's Word" on a RW follower? Could you even play it on your RW?
Wacho
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The discussion is pointless. If you add a troll leader you will have to discard By the Ringwraith's Word because you will now have a character with a higher mind present. Remember RWs don't have a mind attribute. Since having a leader in the company was the "trick" by which you were going to add the troll it will no longer work.
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Bandobras Took
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Wacho wrote:The discussion is pointless. If you add a troll leader you will have to discard By the Ringwraith's Word because you will now have a character with a higher mind present. Remember RWs don't have a mind attribute. Since having a leader in the company was the "trick" by which you were going to add the troll it will no longer work.
Ringwraiths don't have 0 mind. They have no mind attribute. Therefore it's impossible to have a character with a higher mind present -- there's no number to compare it to.
Sauron wrote:Take Iron Shield of Old. It could be read that you can play it at "an underdeeps shadow-hold" or ruins or lairs. Or it can be read correctly as "an underdeeps shadow-hold or ruins and lairs."
Actually, I'd say for the first reading, you'd need an indefinite article: playable at an Under-Deeps Shadow-Hold or a Ruins & Lairs.
Sauron wrote:Many cards can be read in different ways.
Yep, that would by why I asked the question in the first place. :)
Jambo wrote:Can you play "By the Ringwraith's Word" on a RW follower? Could you even play it on your RW?
On your RW, no. The text of By the Ringwraith's Word says "Playable during the organization phase on one of your other characters at the same Darkhaven as your Ringwraith." As far as I can tell, a RW follower is one of your other characters, though.
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