Cirith Gorgor vs. Morannon

[Aranarth]

Can Hero Companies access the Cirith Gorgor site (in the Udun region) from Dagorlad?

The Cirith Gorgor site card illustration depicts the Morannon, the Black Gate. The Morannon card in the basic set allows hero companies to move as though Udun and Dagorlad are connected. Did ICE change their minds later and offered the Cirith Gorgor site to replace this?

It seems ridiculously nonsensical if the only way to get to this site is by entering Mordor via Imlad Morgul and hitting it from behind.

[marcos]

Hero companies can't move to Cirith Gorgor via Dagorlad, Balck gate is open only for Sauron's servants.

You can only access Cirith Gorgor via gorgoroth or popping up from downstairs

[Aranarth]

That's laaame --Cirith Gorgor is adjacent to Dagorlad according to Tolkien and on every map of Middle-earth there is -except ICE's! I think that they had also misplaced it at the Isenmouthe between Udun and Gorgoroth?

Some "house rules" are in order, at least for games that I play with my brother and friends. I've already decided that Barad-dur will be a Darkhaven for Ringwraiths and minion companies, but now I think that hero companies should be able to pass into Udun and through it into Gorgoroth so long as they stop at Cirith Gorgor first and face its automatic attacks. To blazes with the Morannon card -- a waste of valuable resource space anyway, unless someone doesn't own the Cirith Gorgor site card.

[Bandobras Took]

Yes, because Frodo and Sam had such an easy time just walking in . . . Seriously, Cirith Gorgor's auto attacks are laughable. Either can be canceled with Dark Quarrels. That's as much a whistle and a stroll as anything else in Mordor for Hero Companies.

I find it odd that you complain about Morannon being a waste of a resource and then complain about the inability of hero companies to move from Dagorlad to Udun. Morannon is the way a hero company moves from the Dagorlad region to the Udun region. Cirith Gorgor was introduced as a Hero site in the Against the Shadow expansion so that there could be a bit more Hero/Minion interaction, but you do have to go in "the back way."

The fact that you have to draw into Morannon for moving from Dagorlad to Udun is meant to represent the difficulty in doing so. It's an abstraction, certainly, and it's unfortunate that ICE made you able to go around through Nurn, which everybody said would take too long, but those are the cards we're dealt (so to speak). Note also that you can use the Ash Mountains and simply climb your way into Udun after coming down the mountains on the northern edge of the Gorgoroth region.

[Aranarth]

Yes, because Frodo and Sam had such an easy time just walking in . . . Seriously, Cirith Gorgor's auto attacks are laughable. Either can be canceled with Dark Quarrels. That's as much a whistle and a stroll as anything else in Mordor for Hero Companies.

Frodo and Sam might have slipped through if Sauron's forces had been squabbling at that moment (ala Dark Quarrels) but they evidently didn't have that "card" yet did they? They drew it at Cirith Ungol! Any auto attacks can be cancelled one way or another so that's really beside the point.

FYI I once lost the game to Cirith Gorgor's auto attacks (complemented by Glance of Arien) which slew the Balrog! So much for "laughable".

I find it odd that you complain about Morannon being a waste of a resource and then complain about the inability of hero companies to move from Dagorlad to Udun. Morannon is the way a hero company moves from the Dagorlad region to the Udun region. Cirith Gorgor was introduced as a Hero site in the Against the Shadow expansion so that there could be a bit more Hero/Minion interaction, but you do have to go in "the back way."

And then exit back out "the back way"? That really makes no sense, and I cannot believe that was ICE's intention, nor that this site was tucked into innaccessible Udun just for company vs. company fighting (as if that couldn't just as easily happen everywhere else).

Yes I understand the regional "purpose" of Morannon (as I stated in the OP), and I disagree with the need for this card as a resource event. Morannon should have been a site card in the first place (perhaps even situated in Dagorlad's edge) with a special that allows companies to move from Dagorlad to Udun after the site is explored. Since it wasn't, the Cirith Gorgor site can serve that end since it most obviously represents the gated entrance into Mordor!



It's a stronghold at the juncture of regions and difficult to enter/pass regardless of whether it's approached from the North by Dagorlad or South via Udun because it was modified by the men of Gondor to guard against Mordor (and they had raised the Towers of the Teeth) just like the Tower of Cirith Ungol.



Who's going to play with Ash Mountains or Morannon? Folks would more likely load up on Concealments, Marvels Told, and other cancelers, MP resources, and go some other way, but this option should be opened back up, and it's simply and conveniently done by houseruling the site or the map.

And speaking of Cirith Ungol, it should be a requisite stop there as well in order to get into Mordor that way. Companies' ability to traverse Imlad Morgul at will without entering any of its sites in what is supposed to be a narrow bottleneck has never made any sense either. In a way... it's as though some kind of Underdeeps style of movement needs be implemented between certain surface sites... but whatever it takes to translate Tolkien into this game a little more accurately.

[Vastor Peredhil]

well we all agree that there are crappy cards out there in our game,

but the use of Morannon (which is the name of the Gondorian Fortress (we should remember Sauron used it later for his troops, but might have changed the name) blocking the pass of Cirith Gorgor) & Ash Mountains/Mountains of Shadows etc. is an abstract way for ICE to deal with the fact that a small enough company could have sneaked into the place, and yes, it is unexpected to an opponent if this is done, and as I said elsewhere Morannon has other it good uses

most sick is for FW Pallando to move there then using PROPHET OF DOOM to crush a Mordor shuffle deck
squatting at is rare but among the saves & rewarding squat on can do if you lucky search for some items ,)

most of the cards have a use, just because you do not see it, does not mean cards need to change, still I agree Morannon could have been better/more true to Tolkien!

So Aranarth please get into GCCG SVN to acquire some dream cards & rules changes in this way, you can get what you want/need instead of taking up battles for cards thea are crappy, but still got a limited use

yours Vastor Peredhil aka Nicolai

[Bandobras Took]

Yes, because Frodo and Sam had such an easy time just walking in . . . Seriously, Cirith Gorgor's auto attacks are laughable. Either can be canceled with Dark Quarrels. That's as much a whistle and a stroll as anything else in Mordor for Hero Companies.

Frodo and Sam might have slipped through if Sauron's forces had been squabbling at that moment (ala Dark Quarrels) but they evidently didn't have that "card" yet did they? They drew it at Cirith Ungol! Any auto attacks can be cancelled one way or another so that's really beside the point.

The point is that forcing them to enter the site doesn't mean that much as a restriction when there are only two auto-attacks that a host of cancelers can deal with.

I find it odd that you complain about Morannon being a waste of a resource and then complain about the inability of hero companies to move from Dagorlad to Udun. Morannon is the way a hero company moves from the Dagorlad region to the Udun region. Cirith Gorgor was introduced as a Hero site in the Against the Shadow expansion so that there could be a bit more Hero/Minion interaction, but you do have to go in "the back way."

And then exit back out "the back way"? That really makes no sense, and I cannot believe that was ICE's intention, nor that this site was tucked into inaccessible Udun just for company vs. company fighting (as if that couldn't just as easily happen everywhere else).

While I would be the first to applaud your ability to read ICE's mind at the time they designed the Against the Shadow set if such an ability existed , take a look at the hero sites included in Against the Shadow. Every single one is the hero version of an already existing minion site. That's some circumstantial evidence, only further supported by the amount of hero resources in the expansion that had directly to do with CvCC.

Yes I understand the regional "purpose" of Morannon (as I stated in the OP), and I disagree with the need for this card as a resource event. Morannon should have been a site card in the first place (perhaps even situated in Dagorlad's edge) with a special that allows companies to move from Dagorlad to Udun after the site is explored. Since it wasn't, the Cirith Gorgor site can serve that end since it most obviously represents the gated entrance into Mordor!

But that's just it. Cirith Gorgor is the pass, the physical feature of the landscape. Morannon is the black gate you have to enter to get there in the first place, if you're that foolhardy. You either go through the Black Gate, come up from below through the Teeth of Mordor, or come in at the back of the pass instead of the front.

Let me quote, and add some emphasis:

Upon the west of Mordor marched the gloomy range of Ephel Duath, the Mountains of Shadow, and upon the north the broken peaks of and barren ridges of Ered Lithui, grey as ash. But as these ranges approached one another, being indeed but parts of one great wall about the mournful plains of Lithlad and of Gorgoroth, and the bitter inland sea of Nûrnen amidmost, they swung out long arms northward; and between these arms there was a deep defile. This was Cirith Gorgor, the Haunted Pass, the entrance to the Land of the Enemy. (. . .) None could pass the Teeth of Mordor and not feel their bite, unless they were summoned by Sauron, or knew the secret passwords that would open the Morannon, the black gate of his land.

[Aranarth]

Morannon (which is the name of the Gondorian Fortress (we should remember Sauron used it later for his troops, but might have changed the name) blocking the pass of Cirith Gorgor) & Ash Mountains/Mountains of Shadows etc. is an abstract way for ICE to deal with the fact that a small enough company could have sneaked into the place, and yes, it is unexpected to an opponent if this is done,

The Morannon is not a Gondorian fortress. The Towers of the Teeth are, but the Black Gate was made by Sauron in the 2nd age long before Numenor sank and Gondor was established, and is linked to the power of the Ring -as was the Barad-dur- and which is why both crumbled when the Ring was destroyed.

Yes I understand the abstraction of adding to the difficulty by forcing one to obtain three copies of this rare (wasting valuable resource space in a deck), and hopefully drawing one of them at just the right moment (and if not you get to go in another way). As I asked, who's ever going to do it, instead of using cards that are universally-helpful everywhere and taking a route through Imlad Morgul or behind from Horseplains to Nurn?

most of the cards have a use, just because you do not see it, does not mean cards need to change, still I agree Morannon could have been better/more true to Tolkien!

Morannon doesn't have to change, I just wont use it. Cirith Gorgor or the map itself is going to change. This discussion is up because an old friend of mine is getting back into the game, and he's going through the cards to determine their play value. He is building a "most worthless cards list". So we have looked at LIKE THE CRASH OF BATTERING RAMS, and now Morannon.

So Aranarth please get into GCCG SVN to acquire some dream cards & rules changes in this way, you can get what you want/need instead of taking up battles for cards thea are crappy, but still got a limited use

It's not a battle, it's a helpful discussion for me -despite Ben's mockery. All I had asked in the OP is if there is a ruling associated with the cards in question. I just wanted to know if this issue has come up. I'm not proposing changes to the game that everyone needs to accept. "House rules" only apply at my house and they are agreed upon with my friends and my brother. If you come over and play a game with me, your hero company can enter Mordor through the Black Gate situated in the Haunted Pass so long as they face the forces there. I also serve beer, wine, mead, and chips.

As for GCCG, I got lost in the process of setting that up. I wish there were clear instructions for all that must be done. I opened an account at Source forge, but I'm not sure what that does for me.

[Aranarth]

The point is that forcing them to enter the site doesn't mean that much as a restriction when there are only two auto-attacks that a host of cancelers can deal with.

Then perhaps the site card should be further erratified to include a 3rd attack, and/or a special that states that the attacks cannot be canceled, and/or that cards requiring scout skill cannot be played here, if you deem this site to be greater than fortresses like Barad-dur or Dol Guldur.

But the Morannon card simply creates a darkhold with no attacks at all(!) and requires a scout -the presumption of the latter is that stealth will somehow prevail. Is that any better?

While I would be the first to applaud your ability to read ICE's mind at the time they designed the Against the Shadow set if such an ability existed , take a look at the hero sites included in Against the Shadow. Every single one is the hero version of an already existing minion site. That's some circumstantial evidence, only further supported by the amount of hero resources in the expansion that had directly to do with CvCC.

You're the one who suggested that you knew what ICE was thinking for this site, not me: "Cirith Gorgor was introduced as a Hero site in the Against the Shadow expansion so that there could be a bit more Hero/Minion interaction". Strider and Elven Rope featured as fixed cards in the Balrog expansion -are they hero resources designed specifically to combat the Balrog? They must be by the reasoning proferred here. I believe that hero site versions were offered because there simply needs to be two versions of every single site in the game, and there are a variety of uses for these like moving agents.

But that's just it. Cirith Gorgor is the pass, the physical feature of the landscape. Morannon is the black gate you have to enter to get there in the first place, if you're that foolhardy. You either go through the Black Gate, come up from below through the Teeth of Mordor, or come in at the back of the pass instead of the front.

No, the Black Gate and the Haunted Pass are one and the same place; the Morannon is the artificial component, the Cirith is the natural component. The gate is actually IN the pass and seals it -the wall is between (and connects) two mountains -one from each range. This is why the picture of the Black Gate is on the Cirith Gorgor site cards -all three of them, and why all artists who have ever envisioned Tolkien's words have shown a wall connecting natural features. The 2nd auto attack is likely the trolls that open and close the gate. Now let me elucidate with more of the quotes from Tolkien:

"...deep defile. This was Cirith Gorgor, the Haunted Pass, the entrance to the land of the Enemy. High cliffs towered upon either side, and thrust forward from its mouth were two sheer hills, black-boned and bare. Upon them stood the Teeth of Mordor, two towers strong and tall. Across the mouth of the pass, from cliff to cliff, the Dark Lord had built a rampart of stone. In it there was a single gate of iron, and upon its battlement sentinels paced unceasingly."

"...but south and now there loomed the great rampart of Cirith Gorgor, and the Black Gate amidmost, and the Two Towers of Teeth tall and dark upon either side."

Speaking from the frame of reference of Tolkien's world, geographically, this site is accessible from Dagorlad. It's easier to access it from Dagorlad, than to go around and cross Gorgoroth just to get to the Blackgate of Cirith Gorgor. In order to do so a company must also face the fortresses at the Isenmouthe, the Carach Angren, which is the pass between Gorogoth and Udun -very similar situation to the Morannon of Cirith Gorgor. Following ICE's example, crossing it should require a resource event too.

[Bandobras Took]

the Morannon is the artificial component, the Cirith is the natural component.

I rest my case.

[Aranarth]

the Morannon is the artificial component, the Cirith is the natural component.

I rest my case.

That they are separate sites?

[Bandobras Took]

Interpret it as you will.

[Aranarth]

I'll interpret it the way it was rather explicitly described by the author without any ambiguity at all, and the same way that artists have, and the same way that Robert Foster did in his Complete Guide to Middle-earth (a reference book used by Christopher Tolkien, btw):

"Cirith Gorgor- Great pass into Mordor at the meeting of the Ered Lithui and the Ephel Duath, The great gate of the Morannon was built across the pass, which connected Dagorlad and Udun.
Morannon- The rampart across Cirith Gorgor, the exit from Mordor best suited to large armies. Called in Westron the Black Gate."

Parts of one great unit, at one site -like Orthanc in Isengard. Any major or greater items would likely be interred in the Towers of the Teeth, not in an orc tent in the south end of the defile.

You do have a very good point in that the entrance into Mordor should really be very difficult there, and I am wrestling with that problem. I suggested increasing the attacks on the card, negating cancellations, but perhaps the best solution should be to just move the site into Dagorlad. Technically it's not truly in Udun anyway. Then the site is accessible to Hero companies at the Dagorlad (as it is in the books, Return of the King and Unfinished Tales) but they'll still have to use Ash Mountains or Morannon if they want to enter into Mordor there...but of course nobody ever will so "The Black Gate is Closed" to all but someone crazy enough to actually play with those cards. I don't like that. The Undergalleries would also have to be associated with Cirith Gorgor as THE surface site.......

[Ringbearer]

I find Morannon not a stupid card,its a relative safe place to play Lucky Search in the vicinity of Minas Tirith. Do keep a cram ready to mvoe there though.