Council of Elrond

Hello all -

I know the forum rules recommend making a separate post for different questions, however I have a LOT of questions and didn't want to make a mess out of this forum by making a bunch of individual topics. I have been making my way through the Universal Rules Doc by B. Took and as such, some of my questions below are not covered there or I need additional clarification or confirmation on them. Others may be answered in the document but I have simply not gotten to it yet. All of the questions below have arisen recently from actual game play. I certainly don't expect one person to answer them all, but anyone who can help with any of these questions would be most appreciated!! Thanks in advance!

1) If a character is moving alone and you play a creature hazard with 1 attack of two strikes, is the excess strike first assigned as a -1 prowess modifier to the character who then faces the second strike?

2) Can an elven cloak cancel a hazard creature attack that was keyed to 3 wildernesses and required 3 wildernesses to be played?

3) If I draw a Smoke Ring during my end of turn draw can I immediately play it and then continue to draw up to my hand? Or is the drawing of cards during my end of turn phase considered to be one continuous action?

4) I have two companies at the beginning of my M/H phase. One is at a tapped Burh Widu who plans to leave the site and go to Lorien. The second company is at The Lonely Mountain and wants to travel to Burh Widu. Once a company leaves Burh Widu, it goes back into the site deck and can be played again, however all sites must be declared (played?) at once during the beginning of the movement hazard phase. So is it possible if my company leaving BW for Lorien moves first, for my second company to still move to BW on the same turn and arrive at an untapped site?

5) Cards like Rhun state "Playable during organization phase on a company moving without region cards." So if you and your opponent are playing a game using region cards (or a map), can this card legally be played still? In other words, can you simply choose not to use region movement for one company moving during your turn?

6) In regards to tapping a character for support, am I correct that in battle, a character must tap BEFORE a roll is made to give a +1 prowess modifier to another character facing a strike, wheras a corruption check may make the roll first and then a character in the same company may tap to support or boost a failed roll AFTER the fact? Also, allies may tap to support prowess modifiers during battle but may not tap to support corruption checks, correct?

7) Are there any other cards in this game that you are allowed to have more than 3 copies in your play deck other than Black Horse (which allows you to have 9)?

8 ) Can hazard events be played outside of the Movement/Hazard phase? For example, if my opponent plays a Dark Quarrels to cancel an automatic attack during the site phase, may I then play Many Sorrows Befall? Alternatively, may I place a hazard event like Many Sorrows Befall "On Guard" at a site during the normal M/H phase and counting against the hazard limit and then reveal it if my opponent plays a short event during his site phase at that site? If he does not play a short event, may I return it to my hand?

9) Can you start the game with a "hoard" non-unique minor item on one or two of your characters?

10) Does the hazard player always assign -1 prowess modifiers for excess strikes when you have more strikes than characters? Is this the same for both hazard creatures and automatic attacks?

11) If you try to play a faction and are unsuccessful, the faction is discarded but the site does NOT tap, correct?

12) Can a wounded character still transfer an item normally?

13) Can you utilize the -3 modifier when attempting to remove a corruption card from a character during the organization phase if the character is already tapped before the attempt? Or is it a requirement that the character be able to tap in order to attempt the roll untapped at a -3? Also, is there any limit to how many corruption cards you can make an attempt at removal off of a single character in a turn? For example, if one character has 3 different corruption cards on him, could you make rolls to attempt removal of the first 2 untapped at a -3 for each and then tap to remove the third one normally?

14) Can a wounded character still tap and use an untapped item he possesses normally without restriction?

15) I play a Cave Drake hazard creature and target Legolas for one of the strikes. Legolas has a noble hound in tow who must face the strike instead of Legolas. After the Noble Hound faces the strike, can I then assign the second strike to directly to Legolas himself since the Noble Hound has already faced one? Or do I have to assign both strikes simultaneously to two different character in the company and then the Noble Hound jumps in to take the strike assigned to Legolas? What if I assign one strike to the Noble Hound and one strike to Legolas at the same time, would the Noble Hound take both strikes or how would that work?

16) Just to confirm: 2 separate companies travelling from different sites of origin can travel to the same destination site, join as one company once they both arrive and enter the site during the site phase as a single company. Then on the next turn, the companies could again split during the organization phase and then go their separate ways, correct?

17) Can a character's prowess go into the negative?

18) Who goes first at the final council at the end of the game? What if one player's wizard is corrupted and lost during the final council? He loses the game, correct? But does the other player still proceed with his final council actions to make sure his wizard is not also corrupted?

19) If I play Weariness of the Heart on a tapped Glorfindel to force a corruption check and Glorfindel is carrying Cram, can he interrupt and use the Cram to untap (thus dropping one corruption point) before making his corruption roll? Also, what if Glorfindel is already untapped, could he drop the Cram to "untap" even though he isn't tapped?

20) If a company of 2 untapped characters are sitting at Rivendell and a company of 3 characters (all tapped) moves to Rivendell and one character in that company has to make a corruption check at the end of the Movement/Hazard phase, can one or both of the untapped characters who have been sitting at Rivendell tap to support the corruption check?

21) Was there ever an errata to make Old Man Willow a unique hazard creature? It seems like he should be unique since he is a single, specific entity.

the Jabberwock wrote:Hello all -

I know the forum rules recommend making a separate post for different questions, however I have a LOT of questions and didn't want to make a mess out of this forum by making a bunch of individual topics. I have been making my way through the Universal Rules Doc by B. Took and as such, some of my questions below are not covered there or I need additional clarification or confirmation on them. Others may be answered in the document but I have simply not gotten to it yet. All of the questions below have arisen recently from actual game play. I certainly don't expect one person to answer them all, but anyone who can help with any of these questions would be most appreciated!! Thanks in advance!

1) If a character is moving alone and you play a creature hazard with 1 attack of two strikes, is the excess strike first assigned as a -1 prowess modifier to the character who then faces the second strike?

No, excess strikes are converted into -1 penalties. So if Aragorn faces a cave drake alone he faces 1 strike at 10, while he has -1 to prowess.

2) Can an elven cloak cancel a hazard creature attack that was keyed to 3 wildernesses and required 3 wildernesses to be played?

Yes.

3) If I draw a Smoke Ring during my end of turn draw can I immediately play it and then continue to draw up to my hand? Or is the drawing of cards during my end of turn phase considered to be one continuous action?

Drawing is a continuous action.

4) I have two companies at the beginning of my M/H phase. One is at a tapped Burh Widu who plans to leave the site and go to Lorien. The second company is at The Lonely Mountain and wants to travel to Burh Widu. Once a company leaves Burh Widu, it goes back into the site deck and can be played again, however all sites must be declared (played?) at once during the beginning of the movement hazard phase. So is it possible if my company leaving BW for Lorien moves first, for my second company to still move to BW on the same turn and arrive at an untapped site?

No.

5) Cards like Rhun state "Playable during organization phase on a company moving without region cards." So if you and your opponent are playing a game using region cards (or a map), can this card legally be played still? In other words, can you simply choose not to use region movement for one company moving during your turn?

Region cards is an old remains from METW which kinda failed. You can use cards like Rhun when using region movement using a map.

6) In regards to tapping a character for support, am I correct that in battle, a character must tap BEFORE a roll is made to give a +1 prowess modifier to another character facing a strike, wheras a corruption check may make the roll first and then a character in the same company may tap to support or boost a failed roll AFTER the fact? Also, allies may tap to support prowess modifiers during battle but may not tap to support corruption checks, correct?

All supports, both for combat AND for corruption checks must be done BEFORE rolls. Allies may tap for combat support but not for a corruption check.

7) Are there any other cards in this game that you are allowed to have more than 3 copies in your play deck other than Black Horse (which allows you to have 9)?

No.

8 ) Can hazard events be played outside of the Movement/Hazard phase? For example, if my opponent plays a Dark Quarrels to cancel an automatic attack during the site phase, may I then play Many Sorrows Befall? Alternatively, may I place a hazard event like Many Sorrows Befall "On Guard" at a site during the normal M/H phase and counting against the hazard limit and then reveal it if my opponent plays a short event during his site phase at that site? If he does not play a short event, may I return it to my hand?

You cannot play cards outside the m/h phase unless cards state so (like Blind to the West). You can reveal onguard cards only if they could have been played during the m/h phase, unless the card states it can be revealed as an onguard card (eg searching eye). Many Sorrows cannot be revealed as an onguard to cancel Dark Quarrels.

9) Can you start the game with a "hoard" non-unique minor item on one or two of your characters?

No.

10) Does the hazard player always assign -1 prowess modifiers for excess strikes when you have more strikes than characters? Is this the same for both hazard creatures and automatic attacks?

Unless a card effect tells otherwise, hazard player always assigns excess strikes.

11) If you try to play a faction and are unsuccessful, the faction is discarded but the site does NOT tap, correct?

Correct.

12) Can a wounded character still transfer an item normally?

Yes

13) Can you utilize the -3 modifier when attempting to remove a corruption card from a character during the organization phase if the character is already tapped before the attempt? Or is it a requirement that the character be able to tap in order to attempt the roll untapped at a -3? Also, is there any limit to how many corruption cards you can make an attempt at removal off of a single character in a turn? For example, if one character has 3 different corruption cards on him, could you make rolls to attempt removal of the first 2 untapped at a -3 for each and then tap to remove the third one normally?

Not tapping to remove gives a -3. This means if he is already tapped, OR if he elects to remain untapped. You can remove as many different corruption cards as you like, BUT you get only 1 try at each card.

14) Can a wounded character still tap and use an untapped item he possesses normally without restriction?

Wounded characters cannot tap.

15) I play a Cave Drake hazard creature and target Legolas for one of the strikes. Legolas has a noble hound in tow who must face the strike instead of Legolas. After the Noble Hound faces the strike, can I then assign the second strike to directly to Legolas himself since the Noble Hound has already faced one? Or do I have to assign both strikes simultaneously to two different character in the company and then the Noble Hound jumps in to take the strike assigned to Legolas? What if I assign one strike to the Noble Hound and one strike to Legolas at the same time, would the Noble Hound take both strikes or how would that work?

You have to assign one cave-drake strike against the hound before you can assign to legolas. If the hound is targetted, Legolas can also eb the target. he doesnt jump in, he just needs to be targetted beforehand.

16) Just to confirm: 2 separate companies travelling from different sites of origin can travel to the same destination site, join as one company once they both arrive and enter the site during the site phase as a single company. Then on the next turn, the companies could again split during the organization phase and then go their separate ways, correct?

Yes. Companies merge at the same non-haven site at the end of the m/h phase. They can elect to merge when at a haven. During the organisation phase, you can split companies as you like (even giving the two companies a different composition.)

17) Can a character's prowess go into the negative?

Yes. Bill the Pony has a negative prowess to start with.

18) Who goes first at the final council at the end of the game? What if one player's wizard is corrupted and lost during the final council? He loses the game, correct? But does the other player still proceed with his final council actions to make sure his wizard is not also corrupted?

The new tournament rules state that when a wizard is corrupted, that player doesnt lose the game, BUT he gets a -5 MP penalty. So there is no more lose the game and both players finish their final corruption checks. And according to MELE rules, last player takes CC first.

19) If I play Weariness of the Heart on a tapped Glorfindel to force a corruption check and Glorfindel is carrying Cram, can he interrupt and use the Cram to untap (thus dropping one corruption point) before making his corruption roll? Also, what if Glorfindel is already untapped, could he drop the Cram to "untap" even though he isn't tapped?

He can use Cram in response, BUt only if he is tapped.

20) If a company of 2 untapped characters are sitting at Rivendell and a company of 3 characters (all tapped) moves to Rivendell and one character in that company has to make a corruption check at the end of the Movement/Hazard phase, can one or both of the untapped characters who have been sitting at Rivendell tap to support the corruption check?

NO, they merge after individual coruption checks from cards like Lure of Nature or Alone and Unadvised.

21) Was there ever an errata to make Old Man Willow a unique hazard creature? It seems like he should be unique since he is a single, specific entity.

No. It is thought that it symbolises one of many trees gone dark (hence its possibility to be played at other regions as well.)

13) Can you utilize the -3 modifier when attempting to remove a corruption card from a character during the organization phase if the character is already tapped before the attempt? Or is it a requirement that the character be able to tap in order to attempt the roll untapped at a -3? Also, is there any limit to how many corruption cards you can make an attempt at removal off of a single character in a turn? For example, if one character has 3 different corruption cards on him, could you make rolls to attempt removal of the first 2 untapped at a -3 for each and then tap to remove the third one normally?

Not tapping to remove gives a -3. This means if he is already tapped, OR if he elects to remain untapped. You can remove as many different corruption cards as you like, BUT you get only 1 try at each card.
[/quote]

This is sorta correct. You can have multiple tries at each card, under specific scenarios. You may only attempt to remove each corruption card by electing to not tap only once. However if you tap to attempt to remove you can try multiple times, assuming you figure out a way to untap the character again. However you must choose before hand to either try untapped or try by tapping, and you can't swap methods after you've choosen.

Ringbearer wrote:

the Jabberwock wrote:18) Who goes first at the final council at the end of the game? What if one player's wizard is corrupted and lost during the final council? He loses the game, correct? But does the other player still proceed with his final council actions to make sure his wizard is not also corrupted?

The new tournament rules state that when a wizard is corrupted, that player doesnt lose the game, BUT he gets a -5 MP penalty. So there is no more lose the game and both players finish their final corruption checks. And according to MELE rules, last player takes CC first.

A small correction from the Council of Lorien tournament rules as they override MELE rules.

CoL Tournament Policy wrote:7. End-of-Game Order-To determine which player's characters make their corruption checks first when going into the End-of-Game (and possibly carried into The Weakest Link Method), each player makes a dice roll. Rerolling ties, the player who rolls highest chooses which player's characters go first. This rule only has a significant application in limited cases, such as when a Traitor card is in play.

Thanks so much to all of you for the help!

I have a few follow up clarification questions to the answers provided:

1) I think you are saying the same thing here that I was trying to say. Aragorn would only face one strike but with a -1 penalty to prowess for the excess strike. If Aragorn was alone and facing 3 strikes, he would face only 1 strike with a -2 penalty to prowess, correct?

4) Ok, what specifically prevents Buhr Widu from being played here and being used untapped by the second company? Is it because Buhr Widu has to be put back into the location deck first before it can come back out in an untapped status? And if so, is it a requirement then to place a physical location card out next to each moving company at the beginning of your M/H phase? The logic here being that because you can't place Buhr Widu on the table next to one of your moving companies at the beginning of your M/H phase, it can not be legally played. If this is the case, how do you declare movement to a site that is already in play?

6) If this is the case (support tapping being done prior to corruption check rolls), then I suggest an amendment to the Universal Rules Doc composed by B. Took. He lists the following under the category of Corruption Checks:

"When a corruption check is called for, follow this process:
- You may play any cards which might modify the corruption check and are legally playable.
- Make a roll.
- Add any modifiers from cards/abilities. A character may tap to give a +1 modifier to a corruption check made by another character in his company.
etc..."

The order he lists these items clearly suggests that corruption support tapping can be done after the roll is made and is therefor misleading.

13) So by this logic a wounded character may also take a -3 and attempt to remove each corruption card once since he is not able to tap (just like the tapped character)?
And thanks Sauron for the additional clarification. I see what you are saying....if a character had a Cram and decided to tap to try to remove the corruption card, he could then use the Cram to untap and try it a second time. And the other point is that you can't try to remove a corruption card without tapping and taking a -3 penalty and THEN tap the character and try to remove it a second time by tapping.

14) I did not word my question correctly. Let me rephrase: "Can a wounded character tap an untapped item he controls and use its ability, even though he himself is wounded?"

16) So by this logic, if a company of 4 character with a Fellowship in play traveled to the Lonely Mountain on the same turn another company of 2 characters traveled to the Lonely Mountain, they would automatically merge during the site phase and you would be required to discard the Fellowship? If both companies were traveling to a haven, however, you could choose to keep them separate and leave the Fellowship card intact?

18) I guess I'm a bit confused with what is "tournament rules" and what is "tournament convention." I recall reading that when declaring your starting company of characters you can choose to follow a certain tournament convention. When you say that corrupted wizards now give a -5 MP penalty instead of making you lose the game, does that mean this is a widely accepted rule in both tournament and non-tournament games? Or is this something typically only done in tournament play? The reason I ask is because I only play at home with friends, not in tournaments, and I'd like to know what the actual RULE is, if you will. Also, is there a difference if your wizard is eliminated instead of corrupted, or is it still the same -5 MP penalty?

In addition to the follow-up clarifications above, I have 3 new questions I would love to get answers to:

22) Is there any way for a character to simply discard or drop an item he no longer wants?

23) Can the character who is being attacked by a Slayer tap himself to cancel one of the attacks first, and then take the second attack at a -1 (tapped) prowess?

24) If a hazard creature attacks a company who has 2 wounded characters and 2 tapped characters, can the player moving the company assign strikes to a wounded character before a tapped character if he chooses to? I know that untapped character MUST be assigned strikes first, and I want to make sure there is no bleed-over of this rule between tapped and wounded characters.

THANKS AGAIN TO ALL OF YOU FOR ALL THE HELP!! IT IS VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!!

the Jabberwock wrote:Thanks so much to all of you for the help!

I have a few follow up clarification questions to the answers provided:

1) I think you are saying the same thing here that I was trying to say. Aragorn would only face one strike but with a -1 penalty to prowess for the excess strike. If Aragorn was alone and facing 3 strikes, he would face only 1 strike with a -2 penalty to prowess, correct?

Correct

4) Ok, what specifically prevents Buhr Widu from being played here and being used untapped by the second company? Is it because Buhr Widu has to be put back into the location deck first before it can come back out in an untapped status? And if so, is it a requirement then to place a physical location card out next to each moving company at the beginning of your M/H phase? The logic here being that because you can't place Buhr Widu on the table next to one of your moving companies at the beginning of your M/H phase, it can not be legally played. If this is the case, how do you declare movement to a site that is already in play?

At the end of the organisation phase you declare movement for all companies. You may:

A) declare a new site and play it face down
B) declare they move to a site in play, and thus you wont play a new site card but move them ro a revealed site on table. That site doesnt leave table unless no company arrives there (by example: cause of snowstorm).
c) declare they will not move

6) If this is the case (support tapping being done prior to corruption check rolls), then I suggest an amendment to the Universal Rules Doc composed by B. Took. He lists the following under the category of Corruption Checks:

"When a corruption check is called for, follow this process:
- You may play any cards which might modify the corruption check and are legally playable.
- Make a roll.
- Add any modifiers from cards/abilities. A character may tap to give a +1 modifier to a corruption check made by another character in his company.
etc..."

The order he lists these items clearly suggests that corruption support tapping can be done after the roll is made and is therefor misleading.

The Universal rules document, tho a good work is a work in progress. Its not finished yet. What is definitve is the Lidless Eye rules, together with the COE digest and the current rulings.

13) So by this logic a wounded character may also take a -3 and attempt to remove each corruption card once since he is not able to tap (just like the tapped character)?
And thanks Sauron for the additional clarification. I see what you are saying....if a character had a Cram and decided to tap to try to remove the corruption card, he could then use the Cram to untap and try it a second time. And the other point is that you can't try to remove a corruption card without tapping and taking a -3 penalty and THEN tap the character and try to remove it a second time by tapping.

Yes, a wounded character may take a -3 cause he isnt tapping.

14) I did not word my question correctly. Let me rephrase: "Can a wounded character tap an untapped item he controls and use its ability, even though he himself is wounded?"

Yes. I originally thought you meant the character tapping himself and using an item (like Torque of Hues). A wounded character can tap an item.

16) So by this logic, if a company of 4 character with a Fellowship in play traveled to the Lonely Mountain on the same turn another company of 2 characters traveled to the Lonely Mountain, they would automatically merge during the site phase and you would be required to discard the Fellowship? If both companies were traveling to a haven, however, you could choose to keep them separate and leave the Fellowship card intact?

Exactly.

18) I guess I'm a bit confused with what is "tournament rules" and what is "tournament convention." I recall reading that when declaring your starting company of characters you can choose to follow a certain tournament convention. When you say that corrupted wizards now give a -5 MP penalty instead of making you lose the game, does that mean this is a widely accepted rule in both tournament and non-tournament games? Or is this something typically only done in tournament play? The reason I ask is because I only play at home with friends, not in tournaments, and I'd like to know what the actual RULE is, if you will. Also, is there a difference if your wizard is eliminated instead of corrupted, or is it still the same -5 MP penalty?

It is widely played that an eliminated wizard is a -5 MP. And a corrupted wizard is eliminated.

In addition to the follow-up clarifications above, I have 3 new questions I would love to get answers to:

22) Is there any way for a character to simply discard or drop an item he no longer wants?

No, but you can attempt to store it at a haven (some cards allow you to store at other sites).

23) Can the character who is being attacked by a Slayer tap himself to cancel one of the attacks first, and then take the second attack at a -1 (tapped) prowess?

Yes.

24) If a hazard creature attacks a company who has 2 wounded characters and 2 tapped characters, can the player moving the company assign strikes to a wounded character before a tapped character if he chooses to? I know that untapped character MUST be assigned strikes first, and I want to make sure there is no bleed-over of this rule between tapped and wounded characters.

If the resource player has no characters unable to assign a strike to, hazard player assigns.

THANKS AGAIN TO ALL OF YOU FOR ALL THE HELP!! IT IS VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!![/quote]

the Jabberwock wrote:6) If this is the case (support tapping being done prior to corruption check rolls), then I suggest an amendment to the Universal Rules Doc composed by B. Took. He lists the following under the category of Corruption Checks:

"When a corruption check is called for, follow this process:
- You may play any cards which might modify the corruption check and are legally playable.
- Make a roll.
- Add any modifiers from cards/abilities. A character may tap to give a +1 modifier to a corruption check made by another character in his company.
etc..."

The order he lists these items clearly suggests that corruption support tapping can be done after the roll is made and is therefor misleading.

Good catch; that is unclearly stated.

Thanks again to everyone for your input!