METW Rulebook, under the Heading 'Bringing Characters Into Play,' [b]not[/b] under the Heading of 'Organization Phase' (numbers are added for clarity, bold for emphasis) wrote:
BRINGING CHARACTERS INTO PLAY
1) During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities:
2) You may play a character card.
3) You must have enough general influence or direct influence available to control the character.
4) You must place him at his home site or at any Haven site.
There it is. The rules for bringing characters into play are quite specific, and the first requirement is that it be during the organization phase.
These are not rules for the organization phase.
These are rules for bringing a character into play. I hate to labor the point, but they appear under the heading of "Bringing Characters Into Play."
Since these rules are for bringing a character into play, they must apply every time a character is played unless otherwise stated on a card or in the rules.
As stated in the rules, a character that is influenced may be played after having been revealed.
No problem there -- the rules provide an alternative for playing the character all by themselves.
Helm of Her Secrecy can be read either way -- the conditions for playing it can be read as circumventing the first rule -- whenever there is an attack against the company and you have Eowyn in your hand, it is valid to play her with that company. It can also be literally read as not doing so and only applying during the organization phase. I'll take the point -- as it is worded, Helm of Her Secrecy may not come outside this rule.
But in so saying, I will also say that there is not even a
possibility of reading A Chance Meeting in such a way as to overcome the restriction -- still less We Have Come to Kill.
One cannot say that the characters may be brought in at any time simply because the Short Event does not make itself playable only during the Organization Phase for precisely the same reason that the phrase "Playable On An Attack" does not override the rules about facing auto attacks.
There are three types of cards in this regard:
1) Those playable on auto-attacks or characters facing them;
2) Those playable on non-auto-attacks or characters facing them; and
3) Those generically playable on any attack.
It has been said that 1) overrides the rules, but 3) does not -- because 3) does not give specific permission. Even implied permission (i.e., if they didn't want them to be used on auto-attacks they would have combined 3) with 2)) isn't enough.
If implied permission isn't good enough there; if it isn't good enough for The Witch-King's Follower ability to violate the one character per turn limit; if it cannot be used to have a Troll leader in a company; then it also cannot be good enough to circumvent the very first requirement listed under the rules for playing characters.
And I again emphasize, these are the rules for bringing characters into play. Not the rules for the Organization Phase.
Konrad Klar wrote:A Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill says nothing about time of playing. Only sets different conditions (specific site type, only under DI and supersedes text of Hobbits).
Bandobras Took quoting the MELE Rulebook wrote:A special item states at what sites and under which conditions it is “playable.”
Konrad Klar wrote: There are difference between special cards/effects that allow playing items and special items. Such as difference between special cards/effects that creates actions "play character" and characters (sorry I don't know any "special" character).
I'm not sure I made my point adequately clear. You said that Chance Meeting says nothing about the time of playing (i. e. which phase). I pointed out that the MELE Rulebook says absolutely nothing about the time of playing Special Items -- the items themselves are supposed to set forth the conditions of their play. There is only one Special Item that specifies the Site Phase, and that is Mithril.
Konrad Klar wrote:Bandobras Took wrote:That is not the argument you used in the discussion on Orders From Lugburz, which is why I'm pondering this:
Orders From Lugburz does not create at its resolution action "play character". Similarly discarding of Secret Book does not create action "you may play information card". First allows company to contain extra leader, second makes information playable.
Actually, what Orders From Lugburz says is
This company may contain a Troll leader in addition to another leader.
This means what it says: the company may contain a Troll leader.
Konrad Klar wrote:So any other conditions to play character/information still apply.
This is why I'm confused: with some cards it seems like even a direct statement is not enough to override the rules, while with other cards considerable leeway is being given. All Chance Meeting says is that a character may be brought into play at a certain kind of site.
Konrad Klar wrote:Bounty of The Hoard requires tapped site that contains hoard. Minor or major items not need to be playable at such site.
Oops, you're right. It directly overrides two rules.
Konrad Klar wrote:Yes. I don't believe too. "Playable ... during the organization phase" is not extra possibility. This is extra limitation. Unless stated otherwise on card resource short-events may be played in any phase of your turn.
Except for the grand rule: you cannot play cards for no effect.
If it is illegal for a character to be played other than as the rules state and a card must specifically violate this, then you can't play A Chance Meeting: there would be no effect.
If, on the other hand, Chance Meeting throws all the rules for bringing characters into play out the window, then a few other changes are necessary:
1) The Witch-King and Khamul's abilities represent completely different mechanisms for playing a character, and are not limited by the rules for playing Ringwraith Followers found in the MELE Rulebook or the rules for playing characters. This must follow because there is no difference between
You may bring these followers into play
and
A character may be played.
2) Any card that says "Playable on an attack" or "Playable on a character facing an attack" must override any conflicting rules about resources playable when facing an automatic attack. This is because such resources do not say "Playable on a non-automatic attack." By the same reasoning that says Chance Meeting must say "Playable during the Organization Phase" before it can only be played during the Organization Phase for effect, cards must say "Playable on a non-automatic attack" rather than "Playable on an attack" if they are meant to be excluded from such.
3) Special Items, which, according to the MELE rules, specify their own conditions for play, must be considered as playable during any phase at any time if the conditions listed on the card exist. (Side note: the MELE rules only require an untapped site and the site phase for Gold Ring, Minor, Major, and Greater Items. It does not require the same for Special Items.)