Black Horse

The place to ask and debate all rules issues related to MECCG.
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Thorsten the Traveller
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Another one, probably asked before (but not documented), so for clarity:

Black Horse:
"...You may include up to 9 copies of this card in your play deck and sideboard combined."

So this means I can put 9 in the deck straight?

nb. If you have multiple horses on a RW, he still goes to hand if only 1 of them dies, so apparently RW's can't switch horses. Moreover, you can have Black Rider played AND a Black Horse, so your horse dies and you're still in a mode...still RW goes back to Sauron's B&B.
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marcos
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Playable on a Ringwraith at a Darkhaven (does not tap the site). Each Black Horse in your Ringwraith's company allows you to play one Ringwraith follower who requires no direct influence to control. If each Ringwraith in a company has a Black Horse, the company is in Black Rider mode and may freely move (using starter movement). You may include up to nine copies of this card in your play deck and sideboard combined. Return its controller to your hand if Black Horse leaves active play.
So this means I can put 9 in the deck straight?
sure, another one of card overriding rule
If you have multiple horses on a RW, he still goes to hand if only 1 of them dies, so apparently RW's can't switch horses
This is correct
you can have Black Rider played AND a Black Horse, so your horse dies and you're still in a mode...still RW goes back to Sauron's B&B.
also correct
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Thorsten the Traveller
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Well I was kinda implying the weirdness of that rule :wink:
But maybe others don't agree. And on the other hand, stacking 9 horses on your lone RW to avoid him going to hand might also not be balanced. True.
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Bandobras Took
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The weirdness is due to the mode allies not having been anticipated when the Lidless Eye set was released; active Ringwraith strategies based on mode cards sucked so much that they tried to improve them in Against the Shadow with the allies.

Other oddness: Black Horse theoretically allows all Nine RWs in a company, but company size outside a haven is limited to 7. The nine never ride together in ME:LE
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kober
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Quick newbie question: May Fell Rider be played on a RW who is controlling a Black Horse? If yes, what happens to the Horse? In which mode would the RW be?
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Bandobras Took
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Fell Rider wrote:Fell Rider mode. Playable at a Darkhaven during the organization phase on your Ringwraith's own company. +2 prowess, -3 direct influence to your Ringwraith. Discard all allies and Ringwraith followers in the company; none may join the company. Your Ringwraith may move to a non-Darkhaven site. Discard this card during any of your following organization phases the company is at a Darkhaven. Cannot be duplicated on a given company.
You may play Fell Rider on a Ringwraith controlling a Black Horse ally.
Fell Rider causes the ally to be discarded.

Unfortunately,
Black Horse wrote:Playable on a Ringwraith at a Darkhaven (does not tap the site). Each Black Horse in your Ringwraith's company allows you to play one Ringwraith follower who requires no direct influence to control. If each Ringwraith in a company has a Black Horse, the company is in Black Rider mode and may freely move (using starter movement). You may include up to nine copies of this card in your play deck and sideboard combined. Return its controller to your hand if Black Horse leaves active play.
the ally being discarded returns the Ringwraith in question to your hand, thus causing the discard of Fell Rider.
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kober
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That was a silly question - all is written on the cards. Mea culpa.

How about Heralded Lord played on a RW who is controlling a Black Horse? In which mode would the RW be?
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Bandobras Took
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CRF, Mode wrote:When one mode effect is applied to a Ringwraith, all other cards applying a mode effect to that Ringwraith are discarded.
Same problem.

Of course, there's an oddly contradictory problem under that same heading:
If an ally giving a mode is removed from play during the movement/hazard phase, the Ringwraith immediately stops being in that mode, but continues to move to his new site.
Not sure how that works with the two allies who do give a mode returning your Ringwraith to your hand. :?:
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Konrad Klar
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Fortunately, or not
Return its controller to your hand if Black Horse leaves active play.
does not have a chance to happen.

At resolution of the action the card that causes the action is not in play, so:
A card causing an action as a result of a passive condition must be in play when the
action resolves, or else the action is canceled.
The same if Snowstorm will be discarded before resolution of "return the company to site of origin". The action will be canceled.

Someone may notice that for the same reason removing The Will of Sauron could not successfully discard a hazard long-events.
But:
Annotation 9a: If a card is required to be discarded by some passive condition, the
card is discarded immediately when the condition resolves, not in the following chain
of effects.
breaks this vicious circle.

But "return to hand" is not "discard".
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Bandobras Took
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Well, yes. Passive Conditions are a major pile of spaghetti, but I didn't want to go that deep. :)
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Konrad Klar
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Independently from whole passive condition stuff...
Because card's text has priority over general rules
If an ally giving a mode is removed from play during the movement/hazard phase, the Ringwraith immediately stops being in that mode, but continues to move to his new site.
does not affect the Black Horse, or the Creature of an Older World.

But because

Return its controller to your hand if Black Horse leaves active play.
Return your Ringwright to your hand if this ally leaves active play.

do not have a chance to happen, we at least know what happens to a Ringwraith that lose one of that allies while moving in M/H phase.
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Thorsten the Traveller
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Revisiting the topic of Black Horse
Each Black Horse in your Ringwraith's company allows you to play one Ringwraith follower who requires no direct influence to control.
-does this mean the RW follower is playable in addition to another character?
-does this mean the RW follower may come into play at any site?

one would assume no on both accounts, as it is not specifically mentioned, but doesn't that make the part about playing a RW follower a bit obsolete? Or is playing RW followers normally bound by other rules that are broken here?
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Konrad Klar
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Thorsten the Traveller wrote:-does this mean the RW follower may come into play at any site?
I think that no.
What special (and not present in texts of The Witch-King, or They Ride Together) that would supersede:
Lidless Eye wrote:Ringwraith Followers

If the following conditions are met, you may bring another (different) Ringwraith character into play at your Ringwraith's site such a character is called a "Ringwraith follower."
[...]
Your Ringwraith is at a Darkhaven or he is at the Ringwraith follower's home site.
[...]
?
Thorsten the Traveller wrote:-does this mean the RW follower is playable in addition to another character?
Again I do not see anything special that would supersede "you may play/discard only one character during organization phase".
But also I cannot explain meaning of "You may bring these followers into play during separate organization phases" in text of The Witch-King. That sounds like consequence of general restrictions.
The Witch-King wrote:Unique. Manifestation of The Witch-king of Angmar. Can use spirit-magic and shadow-magic. +3 direct influence in Heralded Lord mode. +1 prowess in Fell Rider mode. As your Ringwraith, up to two Ringwraith followers in his company may be controlled with no influence. You may bring these followers into play during separate organization phases. Home Site: Any site in Imlad Morgul
They Ride Together wrote:Playable only at a Darkhaven [V] during the organization phase on your Ringwraith's company. You may bring any Ringwraith followers into play with your Ringwraith's company as you have in your hand and have direct influence to control. '...even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together undertheir fell chieftain.'-LotRI
Thorsten the Traveller wrote:[...]]but doesn't that make the part about playing a RW follower a bit obsolete? Or is playing RW followers normally bound by other rules that are broken here?
That questions are unclear to me.
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Bandobras Took
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Thorsten the Traveller wrote:one would assume no on both accounts, as it is not specifically mentioned, but doesn't that make the part about playing a RW follower a bit obsolete? Or is playing RW followers normally bound by other rules that are broken here?
Don't get me started. ;)
MELE, Ringwraith Followers wrote:If the following conditions are met, you may bring another (different) Ringwraith character into play at your Ringwraith's site - such a character is called a "Ringwraith follower."
· Your Ringwraith is already in play.
· Your Ringwraith is at a Darkhaven or he is at the Ringwraith follower's home site.
· You have the card of the additional Ringwraith in your hand.
· Your opponent does not have the Ringwraith already in play and the Ringwraith has not been eliminated.
· You have the card or ability allowing a Ringwraith follower to be played (e.g., They Ride Together, The Witch-king's ability).
Ringwraith players do not by default have the ability to play Ringwraith followers. Black horse says that you may play Ringwraith followers, thus granting you the ability.
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Thorsten the Traveller
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Ringwraith players do not by default have the ability to play Ringwraith followers.
Ow, didn't realise that, ok then it makes sense. So I must review DC cards to see if they take this for granted.
ICE really wrote some clunky stuff, didn't they? :wink:
-Your Ringwraith is at a Darkhaven or he is at the Ringwraith follower's home site.
I assume Carn Dûm's text still trumps this. The reason to bring up this issue in fact, is finding out which RW follower can come into play at Carn Dûm, and/or what can be done about it.
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