Under-deeps and automatic-attacks

[Eyelid]

Hello to the community,

I have two Under-deeps-related questions:

1) Can you play Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees in the Under-deeps?

This card reads:

Playable on a moving company facing a non-unique hazard creature if Gates of Morning is in play. All attacks of the creature are canceled and all attacks of the next non-unique hazard creature the company faces this turn are also canceled. An untapped character in the company must tap to face any strike from a subsequent hazard creature attack for the rest of the turn. The company can do nothing during its site phase unless it contains a Wizard or you discard Eagle-mounts from your hand. Cannot be duplicated on a given turn.

If this card is indeed playable in the Under-deeps, it would definitely seem conceptually wrong, but I was unable to find a ruling on the matter. I also realize that this card mentions the Eagle-mounts, a card clearly mentioned as one that cannot be played in the Under-deeps.


2) A few Under-deeps sites such as the Iron-deeps, the Sulfur-deeps or the Under-courts have a "special" automatic-attack in the form of a Nazgûl permanent-event: if one such Nazgûl permanent-event is in play, it must attack as an additional automatic-attack (underline mine).

My question is: how does this requirement interact with Forewarned is Forearmed?

Forewarned is Forearmed reads:

Any non-Dragon Lair site with more than one automatic-attack is reduced to having one automatic-attack of the hazard player's choice (this attack cannot be canceled). Any creature or other hazard with more than one attack is reduced to one attack of the hazard player's choice (this attack cannot be canceled). Discard when such an isolated attack is defeated. Cannot be duplicated.

Let's take the Sulfur-deeps as an example:

Automatic-attacks (2): Trolls (1st attack)-2 strikes with 9 prowess (2nd attack)-Opponent may play as an automatic-attack one non-unique hazard creature from his hand normally keyed to Shadow-holds [S] Special: If Khamûl the Easterling or Adûnaphel is in play as a permanent-event, one must be used as an additional automatic-attack (attacker's choice, discard after use-ignore result of defeat).

If the hazard player chooses the Troll attack, would the resource player still have to face the required Nazgûl attack? Or is the hazard player forced to choose the Nazgûl attack as the only attack that can be played against the Resource player?


Thank you all for your time and help.

[Bandobras Took]

Looks like Fifteen Birds is valid in the Under-deeps. The rules merely make mention of using Eagle-Mounts/Gwaihir to move to or from an Under-deeps site. Fifteen Birds was part of the Dark Minions expansion pack, so it seems odd that they missed it, but there it is.

To the second question:
The resource player only has to face the Nazgul attack if it exists. Forewarned makes it so the Nazgul attack does not exist. Since it does not exist, the "must be used" phrase is irrelevant.

[Eyelid]

All right, thanks a lot for clarifying this.

[Konrad Klar]

I don't think so.
My notion on this problem is interconnected with my notion on Thiding of Bold Spies, so let me explain...

Tidings of Bold Spies only copies attacks, not effects that allow certain creatures to
become automatic-attacks.

So what is second AA in under-deeps?
For example Sulfur-Deeps says:

Automatic-attacks (2): Trolls (1st attack)-2 strikes with 9 prowess (2nd attack)-Opponent may play as an automatic-attack one non-unique hazard creature from his hand normally keyed to Shadow-holds [S]

Bold mine.

...and if "Opponent may play as an automatic-attack one non-unique hazard creature from his hand normally keyed to Shadow-holds [S]" would be merely "an effect that allow certain creatures to become automatic-attack" and not full-fledged AA, why it would be reduced by Forewarned and Forearmed? Forewarned and Forearmed reduces an automatic-attacks, but no effects.

Summing up: in my opinion Thiding of Bold Spies copies 2nd AA of Under-deeps (but not effect listed under Special:*). Forewarned and Forearmed removes only 1st, or 2nd AA, (but not effect listed under Special:).

*) Yes, I know. Nazguls that may become additional AA are in play as permanent-events, not as creature, but their creature attribiutes are converted to AA (Nazgul as permanent-event has no prowess, nor body).

[Bandobras Took]

Will be activated at any Under-deeps site with an extra automatic attack that allows the play of
a creature, since the hazard player need not play the creature for the second automatic attack
until the first automatic attack is dealt with. (CoE 31, 67)

You may need to bring this up on the NetRep board if you feel there is a reason Forewarned would not affect such sites; but as long as the ruling is that Forewarned does affect such sites, would you agree that my interpretation of the Nazgûl attacks is consistent with the ruling?

[Konrad Klar]

Fairly speaking: I do not see a rationale behind CoE 31. If two (or more) AAs exists then the Forewarned and Forearmed will reduce them to one, regardless of fact whether 2nd AA will be defined immediatelly on entering site, or after facing 1st AA.

And please, read my post carefuly. I do not say that Forewarned and Forewarned does not affect such sites. I say that it does not affect additional AA that is created as result of special abilities of some Under-deeps. This AA comes after effect (reduction) of FaF.

[Bandobras Took]

I apologize for not speaking clearly.

[Konrad Klar]

Until 2nd AA will be faced and concluded it is not even sure whether special AA will occur. If Doors of Night is in play player may play Praise to Elbereth in strike sequence (to increase prowess) and remove an appropriate Nazgul. Potentially the Nazgul may be removed for other reasons.

[Mordan]

from what the netrep told me Forewarned is Forearmed reduces the number of attacks to 1

so if there are 3 aa, the hazard player choose which one must be faced

troll, card from hand or nazgul. hazard player's choice.

[Konrad Klar]

from what the netrep told me Forewarned is Forearmed reduces the number of attacks to 1

I agree with this statement.

so if there are 3 aa, the hazard player choose which one must be faced

troll, card from hand or nazgul. hazard player's choice.

I there would be 3 AA...

There is a reason for which The Sulfur-deeps lists 2 AA and special ability and not just 3 AA.
2nd AA exists even if it is not defined*. A Nazgul permanent-event may become AA, or may not become additional (if Nazgul will be discarded due to Praise to Elbereth or other reason).

*) Please note that Forewarned is Forearmed has effect on site not only in site phase. It must be decided and known which AA are removed and which AA remains also in M/H phase e.g. for purpose of cards like Tidings of Bold Spies, Arouse/Incite Denizens/Minions. During M/H phase the Nazgul permanent-event may be played or discarded several times.

[Konrad Klar]

Ok. Second thought.

While I'm convinced that at the time when a company enters the site (and before) Nazgul AA does not exist, I must admit that Forewarned is Forearmed may prevent any additional AA from appearing at the site (if isolated AA has been defeated and Forewarned is Forearmed discarded, AA from Nazgul may appear without problem).

[Mordan]

the only good thing is that the attack cannot be canceled