Council of Elrond

Stolen Knowledge. Playable on an untapped character at a Shadow-hold [S] or Dark-hold [D] or if his company faced an agent attack and all of its strikes failed. Tap character. Can be stored at a Haven---only if stored do you receive its marshalling point. If stored, you may discard this card and force one non-unique hazard to be removed from play as you see your opponent discard it through a mechanism of the game

Can that card also be played in a later round (similar to "King under the Mountain" - which doesn't have to played exactly in the turn the dragon was slayed in) on the company?

I would say no

card memory is a tricky thing - in case of King Under the Mountain you have the dead dragon as a reminder so in that case it's special

but in case of Knowledge of the Enemy I'd say the card memory would go only as long as the site on which you fought the agent is still in play - when discarded the memory of what happened there is gone

If all of an agent's strikes failed, you would receive the agent's MPs as kill MPs, wouldn't you? In that case, wouldn't the memory be just as valid?

strikes can fail, but you could fail the bc.

Bandobras Took wrote:If all of an agent's strikes failed, you would receive the agent's MPs as kill MPs, wouldn't you? In that case, wouldn't the memory be just as valid?

besides what Brian wrote, Knowledge of the Enemy needs to be played at the site where something has occurred (the agent's attack failed), so I'd say that even if you have killed the agent you still have time until you discard the site to play Knowledge

and about King under the Mountain - along the same lines I argument above, if your soon-to-be-King-dwarf get somehow removed from active play after his company kills the dragon and later you manage to play that dwarf again he'll bo longer have memory of defeating the dragon - so King under the Mountain wont be playable on him

this may seem complicated but it all can get reduced to: I think that cards hold memory of what happened only as long as they stay in active play, when removed from active play and later brought back they'll have no memory of previous events/effects/actions
(I used the same reasoning in the case of Air-lift to Mount Doom trick, but everyone except miguel (Mikko) seemed to ingore it/me...)

|Highwayman| wrote:

Bandobras Took wrote:If all of an agent's strikes failed, you would receive the agent's MPs as kill MPs, wouldn't you? In that case, wouldn't the memory be just as valid?

besides what Brian wrote, Knowledge of the Enemy needs to be played at the site where something has occurred (the agent's attack failed), so I'd say that even if you have killed the agent you still have time until you discard the site to play Knowledge

Unless there is errata of which I am unaware, the second playability clause does not require a site at all.

Playable on an untapped character at a Shadow-hold [S] or Dark-hold [D] or if his company faced an agent attack and all of its strikes failed.

That could have been during the site phase, the m/h phase -- whenever an agent can attack.

Khamul the Easterling wrote:Can that card also be played in a later round (similar to "King under the Mountain" - which doesn't have to played exactly in the turn the dragon was slayed in) on the company?

I would say yes.

Unless there is errata of which I am unaware restricting this to the "until end of turn"*. In all cases Knowledge of the Enemy must not be played immediately after agent's attack.

*) I remember: it was written in COE 52.

I read the card wrong - that it's playable on a Shadow hold or Dark hold only after facing an agent and when his strikes fail

in this case I'd say it's the same way I explained King Under the Mountain - as long that the company that faced the agent remains in play it holds the memory of what happend thus fulfiling the requirement of the card, btu if somehow the company gets removed from active play and later brought back then it would lose that memory...

If so, would it require just one of the "original" characters who faced the agent to be present at the time of playing KotE? Or would all characters who faced the agent need to remain present in the company?

What would happen if members of the original company who faced the agent then decided to split up? Would both split companies be considered ok for the play of this card as long as they contained a character who'd faced the agent?

Jambo wrote:If so, would it require just one of the "original" characters who faced the agent to be present at the time of playing KotE? Or would all characters who faced the agent need to remain present in the company?

just one of the characters would be enough - so even if all other characters got removed from active play the one that stays still remembers what happened and can play Knowledge

Jambo wrote:What would happen if members of the original company who faced the agent then decided to split up? Would both split companies be considered ok for the play of this card as long as they contained a character who'd faced the agent?

yes, so if after facing the agent you'd split your companies into even 4 or 5 different ones all those companies would hold memory of what happened

in my point of view the memory of past events/effects/actions etc stick with cards involved with them all the time no matter what - except from when being removed from play and later brought back, card's memory is erased when the card is removed from active play

Company's composition may change even in 100%, but company's history remains unchanged.

Knowledge of the enemy reads like that

Stolen Knowledge. Playable on an untapped character at a Shadow-hold [S] or Dark-hold [D] or

so you need an untap character at a Shadow or Darkhold OR an agaent attack that failed at any other site.

This is how I read it, as this is what it says, sorry to say but some people here should consider wearing glasses

mfg Nicolai

Vastor Peredhil wrote:Knowledge of the enemy reads like that

Stolen Knowledge. Playable on an untapped character at a Shadow-hold [S] or Dark-hold [D] or

so you need an untap character at a Shadow or Darkhold OR an agaent attack that failed at any other site.

This is how I read it, as this is what it says, sorry to say but some people here should consider wearing glasses

mfg Nicolai

I've said above that I misread the card at start and adjusted my reasoning accordingly

there are 2 ways to play Knowledge - simply on the required site, or after facing an agent whose strikes failed
card memory problem is only in case of the agent situation

Konrad: you're right, so we could say that every character from the original company caries memory of facing the agent and 'infects' with this memory all other companies he ends-up in