Draft: accidental violation of company composition rules

[Konrad Klar]

Scenario:
Draft. Two Fallen-wizard players.

1st revaled cards: A Bad Company (both players).
2nd revealed cards: Arwen, Balin.
3rd revealed cards: Orc Tracker, Orc Veteran.
4th revealed cards: Hidden Haven on Weathertop (both players).

If both players reveal this as a starting stage card, on the same site, at the same time, it
is set aside, and may not be played on that site by either player until the game begins.

that leads to violation of company composition rules.

What then?
Return Hidden Haven to pool and Weathertop to Location Deck? Other ideas?
If "return Hidden Haven to pool and Weathertop to Location Deck" a game may potentially stall during draft if both players will be determined to have starting company at the same .

[Bandobras Took]

My (admittedly theoretical and non-official) interpretation:

You and your opponent reveal your characters simultaneously, placing any duplicated characters into your play decks. Then organize your starting characters into followers and companies and place them at Minas Morgul (i.e., place a Minas Morgul site card next to them).

The draft was instituted to help prevent total bouncing. However, the part about organizing your starting characters into followers and companies is not overridden. In the case where Hidden Haven is not able to be played, one must organize the characters into different legal companies, all but one of which must attempt to move to a different site during the player's first turn.

[Konrad Klar]

Small problem is that game (after draft) does not begin from organization phase.
But I must admit that I did not found a rule that forbids a two or more companies to occupy the same non-Haven site outside organization phase.

P.S.
If there is no such rule then it creates new possibilities for effects that allow for movement without M/H phase (Ancient Stair, Legendary Stair, Bill The Pony).

[Konrad Klar]

I want to resurrect this topic.
I think now that there is no problem at all .
For at least one reason:

You must attempt to start with one, two, or three (your choice) stage resource
permanent-event cards in play. These cards must have a combined total of 3 stage
points. At least one of these cards must be non-unique. You may not start such a card
if the conditions required to play the card do not exist. These cards should be revealed
as if they were starting characters with duplicate unique cards being discarded.

Underline mine.

So to reveal Hidden Haven a player must earlier specify that a starting site is (and which exactly). Therefore he cannot legally have (Orc OR Troll) AND (Elf OR Dwarf OR Dúnadan OR Hobbit) in starting company at this point.

P.S.
Unclear (to me) is whether a player may defer at all a specification of a site of starting company, or rather he is obliqued to specify it along with revealing a first character?

[miguel]

Hi Konrad, I hope you are well.

How Hidden Haven works in the draft has been ruled upon.

The CRF entry on Hidden Haven is not very clear.  Here's a clarification:

***  If Hidden Haven is drafted as a starting stage card, your starting
site is chosen at that time, before the next card is drafted.  If both
players draft Hidden Haven at the same time, then both players
immediately draft their starting sites.  If both players draft the same
site, then Hideen Haven is placed out of play, but each player must
stick with their chosen starting site.  Note that that particular copy
of Hidden Haven is out of play and cannot be played on any site.

Two relevant quotes regarding the company composition:

Unless at a Wizardhaven, any Orc or Troll cannot be in the same company as an Elf, Dwarf, Dúnadan, or Hobbit.

Each unduplicated revealed character goes into its player's starting company.

I'd say that if a player wants to start with a mix of orc/troll and elf/dwarf/dúnadan/hobbit characters, they must place that starting company into a wizardhaven when the company composition rules would otherwise be violated. Normally that would mean just getting the appropriate wizardhaven from your location deck, but with Hidden Haven you would need to play it first (before violating the company composition rules) to secure a wizardhaven for your band of misfits. Does that make sense?

[Konrad Klar]

Hi Konrad, I hope you are well.

I think now that there is no problem at all .

Does that make sense?

Yes.
One unclear (collateral) thing remains unclear for me: whether a player may defer at all a specification of a site of starting company, or rather he is obliqued to specify it along with revealing a first character?

[miguel]

Normally you would give the starting company their starting site after the draft, before drawing cards. Only under special circumstances would the starting site need to be revealed during the draft, such as playing Hidden Haven (as quoted from the Rulings Digest #55) or when the company composition rules require it (IMO).

Also, regarding two or more companies at the same site:

Technically speaking, each company at a haven needs its own site card. This is often ignored, for the obvious reason that most companies do not tap their havens or play events on them. However, it is the official rule.

In any case, you cannot get multiple companies at a Hidden Haven'd wizardhaven (except in special circumstances – e.g., during the org phase when one company is about to leave).