Token of Goodwill + Leaf Brooch

[Muzgash]

Can Leaf Brooch be discarded to satisfy Token of Goodwill even without the presence of the appropriate item type? For instance, if I had a party with no greater items, could I still use Token to cancel a dragon attack by discarding Leaf Brooch? I'd guess that I could, but I'm not entirely sure if Token of Goodwill looks for a greater item to discard when you declare it and then eats Leaf Brooch instead upon resolution, or if the presence of Leaf Brooch is enough to allow declaration, even with the absence a greater item present.

Leaf Brooch: Only playable at Lorien. If a non-special item must be discarded from the company of Leach Brooch's bearer (according to any hazard or resource effect), you may discard Leaf Brooch instead to fulfill this requirement.

Token of Goodwill: Offering Attempt. Playable on a diplomat whose company is facing an attack of the type listed below. Target diplomat makes a corruption check. If he does not fail, discard an item from his company (as listed below), and make a roll (or draw a #) adding the diplomat's unused direct influence. If the result is greater than the listed values, the attack is canceled, and you may take one resource from your play deck or discard pile into your hand (reshuffle play deck if searched). Against a Dragon: greater item/5, against a Drake: major item/6, against men, Slayer, or any Agent: minor item/7.

[Konrad Klar]

Problem is not whether you can discard Leaf Brooch instead an item, without presence of the item.
Problem is whether you can play Token of Goodwill without presence of appropriate item.

There is notion that "an item" is target of Token of Goodwill, i.e. it must be choosen at declaration of Token of Goodwill, not later.
And I cannot object that interpretation.

Discarding Leaf Brooch can satisfy effect that force company to discard non-special item. It cannot satisfy conditions like presence of item, or discarding item.

[Muzgash]

Thanks for the response.
That notion you refer to is what I was trying to get at when I said "Token of Goodwill looks for a greater item to discard when you declare it." The only reason I thought it might work is because the phrase "to full this requirement" is in Leaf Brooch's text. With that phrase my understanding was that you have Token, which requires the discard of item type X and Leaf Brooch, which "fulfills the requirement" of item type X being discarded, conceivably being a legitimate target for Token. If Leaf Brooch just said "you may discard this card instead" as opposed to "you may discard this card instead to fulfill this requirement" then it would clear to me that you had to have the appropriate item present. With the wording that it has, it is much more ambiguous, but I understand the reasoning behind my idea not working.

[Konrad Klar]

If Leaf Brooch just said "you may discard this card instead" as opposed to "you may discard this card instead to fulfill this requirement" then it would clear to me that you had to have the appropriate item present.

I want to clarify my opinion.
Leaf Brooch may be discarded instead of a non-special item, even if the item is not present. Text of Leaf Brooch is not problem here.

However, if the item is target of other action (including playing a card), it must be present at declaration of the action (and when it comes to resolution of the action). Otherwise the action cannot be decalred (or cannot resolve, when it comes to its resolution [if the item has been lost in menatime]).

Leaf Brooch or discarding of Leaf Brooch may not substitute a presence of item.

P.S.
Not relevant to disscused scenario:
Leaf Brooch also cannot be discarded instead of an item if discarding of the item is condition of action.
E.g. cannot be discarded instead of Lost Kowledge item as condition of playing the Fate of The Ithil-stone (even if Forgotten Scrolls, or Lost Tome are present in company).
Condition of hazard or resource is not effect of hazard or resource.

P.P.S.
The notion the item discarded according to Token of Goodwill's effect is target of Token of Goodwill has been expressed here: http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... 2919#p2919

I cannot object it, but I'm not sure whether this notion is valid.

[Muzgash]

I don't have an issue with the fact that you need to target the item marked for discard upon declaration of Token. My issue is that, generally speaking, to legally play a card like Token (or any other card that requires targets upon declaration) you must target whatever other cards you're using to fulfill the declared card's requirements. Leaf Brooch explicitly states “may discard Leaf Brooch instead to fulfill this requirement.” Since you can discard Leaf Brooch to Token, I don’t think it’s crazy to argue that you can target Leaf Brooch upon declaration of Token to satisfy the targeting of the item marked for discard. Sure, it's not a minor/major/greater item, but it does fulfill the requirement of discarding such an item.

[Konrad Klar]

I don’t think it’s crazy to argue that you can target Leaf Brooch upon declaration of Token to satisfy the targeting of the item marked for discard

Seems like you are using a word "target" instead of "specify" which is probably why we are having difficulties with understanding each other.

If action A causes discarding its target, the target must be specified at declaration, still be present when action A tries to resolve, and finally be discarded when action A successfully resolves.
So at two points of time it is checked whether target is present. At third point target must be discarded.
Two first presences are a conditions. Third - discarding - is an effect.

And there cards that test (and target) of gold rings. As last step of test a gold ring is discarded.
Even if it is "not crazy" idea to substitute presence of non-special item at declaraion with presence Leaf Brooch, how to obtain numbers required by test?
Just to say that Leaf Brooch substitutes Beautiful Gold Ring, or Precious Gold Ring?

[Muzgash]

The ring test argument doesn't work, because I'm not saying that Leaf Brooch is a minor/major/greater/gold ring item. You wouldn't be able to play a ring test on Leaf Brooch, because it's not a gold ring, it''s just a card that fulfills the requirement that you discard a gold ring. That's really the point I'm trying to make. I'm saying that it's possible to say that Token doesn't require a minor/major/greater item, it requires an card that fulfills the requirement of discarding a minor/major/greater item. Leaf Brooch is such a card.

[Konrad Klar]

Targeting X is the same as playing something on X.

[Konrad Klar]

Targeting X is the same as playing something on X.

Not precise.

Should be: a card that target X is the card that is playable on X.
(there are some actions other than playing a card that have targets).

[Bandobras Took]

Offering Attempt. Playable on a diplomat whose company is facing an attack of the type listed below. Target diplomat makes a corruption check. If he does not fail, discard an item from his company (as listed below), and make a roll (or draw a #) adding the diplomat's unused direct influence. If the result is greater than the listed values, the attack is cancelled, and you may take one resource from your play deck or discard pile into your hand (reshuffle play deck if searched). Against a Dragon: greater item/5, against a Drake: major item/6, against Men, Slayer, or any Agent: minor item/7.

Token Of Goodwill requires for its play only that a Diplomat's company be facing an attack of the appropriate type. If no items of the appropriate type exist, then there will be no cancellation roll/resource grab, but the Diplomat will nevertheless make a corruption check.

If a non-special item must be discarded from the company of Leaf Brooch's bearer (according to any hazard or resource effect), you may discard Leaf Brooch instead to fulfill this requirement.

A non-special item must be discarded for Token. Leaf Brooch's ability allows it to fulfill the requirement that a card be discarded. Token can validly target Leaf Brooch in the absence of an item of the appropriate type because Leaf Brooch does not require the presence of an item of the appropriate type; it can merely be discarded to meet the requirement that an item of a given type be discarded. I believe Muzgash is correct in his argument.

[Konrad Klar]

Target is one of requirements. Right?
If right:
How a card may not require an item and at the same time target the item?

[Muzgash]

Target is one of requirements. Right?
If right:
How a card may not require an item and at the same time target the item?

What I'm trying to say is that Leaf Brooch, even by itself, could be a legal target for the requirements of Token, including at declaration. I don't think I've articulated my position all that well, so I'll leave it to someone else to give it a go.

[Konrad Klar]

Because there are different uses of word "target" here, I would to quote one paragraph of CRF, that says about peculiarities of targets in chain of effects.

Annotation 8: An action that requires a target is considered to have the active
condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved.
An action may not be declared if its target is not in play. However, dice-rolling actions
may always be targeted by other actions declared later in the same chain of effects.

I do not think that Leaf Brooch (or discarding it) would substitute having item (potentially non-special) worth at least 2MP as condition of Tower Raided.
Although that what is supposed here for Token of Goodwill would mean otherwise.

Playable during the site phase on an untapped Shadow-hold [S] if your company there: bears an item worth at least 2 marshalling points, contains an untapped scout, and discard for no effect a Stolen Knowledge card it controls. Tap the site and discard the item. Company faces an attack: Orcs-4 strikes with 8 prowess. By the end of the site phase, tap a scout in the company or discard this card. If this card is not discarded, all versions of this site are now Ruins & Lairs [R], and no factions are playable there. Discard this card when the site is discarded or returned to your location deck.

Of course I think that Leaf Brooch can be discarded instead discarding of item worth at least 2 marshalling points (if item specified at declaration is non-special).

[Bandobras Took]

Of course Leaf could satisfy the requirement of discarding the item for Tower Raided. The key here is that Token does not actually require an item of the appropriate type to be in the company. Tower does, as mentioned in its playability clause.

[Konrad Klar]

Ok.
So now only one litle question:

Token can validly target Leaf Brooch in the absence of an item of the appropriate type because Leaf Brooch does not require the presence of an item of the appropriate type;

When Token of Goodwill targets Leaf Brooch?
Rest is understandable (I hope).