A few newbie questions

The place to ask and debate all rules issues related to MECCG.
Post Reply
HilariousPete
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:07 pm

Hi there,

long ago I played MECCG (just on a casual basis, only METW and a few cards from TD and LE) and recently I put the cards out of the shelve again. Of course some rule questions popped up. It would be great if you could help me.
Btw, sorry for me violating the guidelines for rules question in my first posting by putting several questions into this single topic, but I didn't want to "spam" the forum with 6 separate newbie-question topics ;-)

A) Regarding the timing of playing cards: When an item with e.g. 2 corruption points will be played at a site and my opponent put Lure of Expedience on guard, what's the proper resolution sequence?
Since MECCG uses a LIFO-ordering of the stack/chain of effects, I suppose it is like this:
1. I tap the character and play the item (it's declared on the stack, but not attached yet)
2. My opponent responds by revealing Lure of Expedience and puts it on top of the stack
3. No one puts any more cards on the stack, so the chain of effect gets resolved in LIFO order:
4. My opponent chooses a character where to put the Lure onto (probably the character that I tapped so he will have 4 CP in total and will need to make a corruption check because of the Lure).
5. The next card on the stack that is resolved is the item. I attach it to the tapped character. The stack is empty now.
6. The Lure's text triggers and the character needs to make a corruption check against (at least) 4 corruption points.
Is this true?

B) Anduril the Flame of the West gives its sage 1 corruption piont and states that the sage needs to make a corruption check modified by -3. There's no "play on the sage" or "attach to the sage" so I don't know whether Anduril gets attached first and then the check is made, or vice versa.

About printed numbers:
C) If an Orc Captain ("Discard on a body check result of 8") has a Black-hide Shield (+1 to body), the text of the Orc Captain automatically gets adapted to "Discard on a body check result of 9"? Or will the number of 8 stay fixed? (The latter seems very strange - discard on an 8 but keep on a 9...?)
D) Hoarmurath the Ringwraith states "If xxx, you may keep one more card than normal in your hand". Since it is a "may", am I allowed to switch his ability on and of at will? (E.g. at the end of the movement/hazard phase I switch it off to discard down to 8; at the end of the turn I switch it on, voluntarily discard a card (now at 7) and draw up to 9? Or should Hoarmurath's text be read as "your hand size is 9"?)

E) E.g. Undead attacks keyed to [-me_sl-] against a minion player's company are only detainment attacks. What's about an Undead automatic attack, e.g. printed on Dead Marshes. Detainment or regular?

F) Fell Rider: According to the rulebook, Ringwraiths and non-Ringwraiths may only be in the same company in a Darkhaven. So it's not allowed to have a Ringwraith and regular minions together at a non-Darkhaven site. Since other non-Ringwraith minions don't get discarded by Fell Rider's text, they remain in the Ringwraith's company. The card's text states that the "Ringwraith may move to a non-Darkhaven site". Does this sentence override the rulebook and he may move there with other minion characters, or does the company need to split and only the Ringwraith may move there?

Greetings,
Pete
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4484
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

A) Not correctly.
Revealing of on-guard cards breaks LIFO ordering.
They are revealed in response to some other action, but they are declared and resolved immediatlely and retroactively - i.e. before chain of effects in which they was revealed (yes - kind of time-machine).
Final result is that when character taps to play item the Lure of Expedience is already played on him (or on other character in his company).

Please note that otherwise a corruption cards could not be revealed as on-guard; they cannot be played in response, only as first card of chain of effects.

B) Until stored Anduril the Flame of the West is not at any point not attached to character. Some cards are, they that say "if condition X is fulfilled then place the card with character, otherwise discard it". So sage will made corruption check with CP from Anduril.

C) Discard number is modified. Discussion is here: http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... =16&t=2220
I must admit that I still do not understand how it is calculated exactly. :oops:

D)
CRF, Rulings by Term, Hand Size wrote:Effects which increase your hand size or allow you to hold one more card in your
hand mean that you draw up to your new hand size or discard down to it at the
appropriate points during the game.
Effects which increase hand size are cumulative.
E) They are not detainment, unless specifically stated otherwise.

F) A company need to split so each resulting company that want to move will not have characters that cannot be in the same company outside haven.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
HilariousPete
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:07 pm

Thanks for your answers!

I'll need to think more about your answer to A)... you tell me that although such a card is revealed in the chain of effects due to playing the item, the on guard-card is immediately declared and resolved. Does this mean that the on-guard card creates a secondary chain of effects, and the original chain of effects is put on hold? (If yes, the following hypothetical situation should be possible: If the card Twilight didn't include the word "environment" but could cancel any card, it should be possible to cancel such a revealed Lure of Expedience with it?)

To B): Ok, if I got you right, Anduril gets immediately attached to the character that tapped for it. It gets attached at the moment I put it on the table ( =that is the moment it is declared in its chain of effects). Then another card can be declared and put on the stack, and so on... Then the chain of effects gets resolved, with the last card being Anduril, resulting in a corruption check (including its 1 CP because it had been on the tapped character since it left my hand). Right?

C) Ah yes I understand. The numbers are shifted, and weapon / armor modifications are applied first, including their cut-off values. Then all other modifications are applied.

D) to F): Pretty clear.

Thanks,
Pete
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4484
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

I'll need to think more about your answer to A)... you tell me that although such a card is revealed in the chain of effects due to playing the item, the on guard-card is immediately declared and resolved. Does this mean that the on-guard card creates a secondary chain of effects, and the original chain of effects is put on hold? (If yes, the following hypothetical situation should be possible: If the card Twilight didn't include the word "environment" but could cancel any card, it should be possible to cancel such a revealed Lure of Expedience with it?)
On-guard card creates its own chain of effects, that precedes chain in which the on-guard was revealed. There is no possibility of response with anything to declaration of the on-guard card, because the card declares and resolves immediately. So hypothetical Twilight's counterpart would not work.
However, because Lure of Expedience is already in play when character taps to play item, it may be discarded by Marvels Told etc. declared in response to playing item (i.e in the same chain in which Lure of Expedience was revealed).
[...] (including its 1 CP because it had been on the tapped character since it left my hand). Right?
Since it is resolved. (Something may happen between declaration and resolution of Anduril, that may cause resolution not possible [lost of sage, lost of sage skills...]).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
HilariousPete
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:07 pm

Konrad Klar wrote: On-guard card creates its own chain of effects, that precedes chain in which the on-guard was revealed. There is no possibility of response with anything to declaration of the on-guard card, because the card declares and resolves immediately.
[...]
However, because Lure of Expedience is already in play when character taps to play item, it may be discarded by Marvels Told etc. declared in response to playing item (i.e in the same chain in which Lure of Expedience was revealed).
Ah, I begin to understand what you meant by time-machine. The revealed Lure of Expedience gets immediately declared and resovled (so no other card may enter Lure's chain of effects), and after that the original chain of effects continues (that chain is still in the "declaration phase") and "pretends" that the Lure has been there since its beginning. And that's the reason why I can play Marvels Told in that original chain of effects to discard the Lure which is in play at that time. Ok.
Konrad Klar wrote:
[...] (including its 1 CP because it had been on the tapped character since it left my hand). Right?
Since it is resolved. (Something may happen between declaration and resolution of Anduril, that may cause resolution not possible [lost of sage, lost of sage skills...]).
Oh, then I got you wrong in your last posting. So the proper sequence is (I hope):
1) Anduril leaves my hand and enters the stack (i.e. is declared but not yet resolved)
2) Other cards may be declared on the stack
3) Those other cards get resolved in a LIFO manner
4) Anduril gets resolved. Its text resolves from top to bottom, and at first the bold "Sage only" part gets resolved. If my sage is still there (and still is a sage), the bold part implicitly means to attach Anduril to the sage. So I attach it now.
5) Then the next sentence is resolved: I tap the sage and site.
6) Next sentence is resolved: Sage makes a corruption check (including 1 CP from Anduril).
Is this the proper sequence? Especially, is Anduril attached to the sage before or after he is tapped?

Thanks again,
Pete
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4484
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

4) Anduril gets resolved. Its text resolves from top to bottom, and at first the bold "Sage only" part gets resolved. If my sage is still there (and still is a sage), the bold part implicitly means to attach Anduril to the sage.
"Sage only" and whole part in bold are conditions, not main effects. They are checked at declaration (if target character is not sage, site tapped, and/or "Information" is not playable, Anduril cannot be played) and when it comes to resolution of Anduril (is target character still sage, is in play at all, site is untapped and "Information" is playable; if any of these checks fails, Anduril cannot resolve).
6) Next sentence is resolved: Sage makes a corruption check (including 1 CP from Anduril).
Is this the proper sequence? Especially, is Anduril attached to the sage before or after he is tapped?
Is attached when it is successfully resolved. If Anduril cannot resolve for any reason, sage and site do not tap, corruption check is not performed.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
HilariousPete
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:07 pm

Konrad Klar wrote: They are checked at declaration [...] and when it comes to resolution of Anduril
[...] if any of these checks fails, Anduril cannot resolve
6) Next sentence is resolved: Sage makes a corruption check (including 1 CP from Anduril).
Is this the proper sequence? Especially, is Anduril attached to the sage before or after he is tapped?
Is attached when it is successfully resolved.
Ah! Ok, those are important things to know/understand.

Thanks,
Pete
HilariousPete
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:07 pm

Wait, there's still something unclear...
- Making the corruption check is part of the resolution of Anduril
- Whether a card has resolved successfully (or not) can be determined only after its resolution (because some parts of Anduril could fizzle, so you need to wait until all effects have resolved to tell if Anduril resolved successfully)
- Anduril gets attached when Anduril's text has successfully resolved
Those 3 points mean that the corruption check (which is part of the resolution) has to be made before Anduril is attached. Hence without the 1 CP, yes?
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4484
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Sorry, for unneded "successfully". This indeed could be confusing.

Sometimes a card thas was declared, cannot resolve.
It is sometimes called then as "a card that fails to resolve", or " card that fizzles" and opposite situation as "succesfull resolution".
So "successful resolution" is retronym.
Formally there is no "unsuccessfully resolved" cards.

When a card is resolved it is resolved successfully. This is the same.
Then a card actually start working, not sooner. And this is a card's main effect.
Returning to Anduril, the corruption check will not happen util Anduril is resolved ("successfully resolved").
When it is successfully checked that target character is still in play, is still sage etc. End then (not sooner, not later) Anduril is on character (attached to character, if you prefer so).

If check that is main effect* of a card fails it absolutely does not mean that playing of card fails, or the card did not resolve.
Causing failed check is main purpose of some cards.

*) With exception of action of The One Ring, corruption check (and other checks) are never condition of action. They are action's main effect.
The One Ring (Hero) wrote:Unique. The One Ring. Playable only with a Gold Ring and after a test indicates The One Ring. +5 prowess (to a maximum of double the bearer's starting prowess), +5 to body (to a maximum of 10), +5 to direct influence. Bearer may make a corruption check modified by -2 to cancel a strike; this does not work against Undead and Nazgûl strikes. +1 corruption to every character in the bearer's company.
The One Ring (Minion) wrote:Unique. The One Ring. Playable only with a Gold Ring and after a test indicates The One Ring. +5 prowess (to a maximum of double the bearer's normal prowess). +5 to body (to a maximum of 10). +5 to direct influence. Bearer may make a corruption check modified by -2 to cancel a non-Undead, non-Nazgûl strike. +1 corruption point to every character in the bearer's company.
Underlines and bold mine.

P.S.
Poor excuse, but term "successfully resolved" is used also in ICE materials in some places.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
HilariousPete
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:07 pm

Konrad Klar wrote: When a card is resolved it is resolved successfully. This is the same.
Then a card actually start working, not sooner. And this is a card's main effect.
Returning to Anduril, the corruption check will not happen util Anduril is resolved ("successfully resolved").
When it is successfully checked that target character is still in play, is still sage etc. End then (not sooner, not later) Anduril is on character (attached to character, if you prefer so).
Ah yes, this makes sense. Thanks!
Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions & Debate (unofficial)”