Skin-changer

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zirilan
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Skin-changer

Post by zirilan » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:44 am

Skin-changer

I have a couple of questions about Skin-changer and its effects to some situations.
What is possible and what isn't possible (Example with Radagast & Beorn in a company):
  • They enter Ruined Signal Tower (Spiders 2@8).
  • They enter Tharbad (Men 3@6).
  • They face a Cave-drake (2@10 attacker chooses).
  • They face the Arthadan Rangers (Dúnedain each@10/6).
In which of above cases would Radagast have to face a strike from an attack
and in what cases can Beorn with Skin-changer protect him?
Who gets the -1 prowess modification?

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Skin-changer

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:52 pm

  • They face the Arthadan Rangers (Dúnedain each@10/6).
CRF, Turn Sequence, Combat, General wrote:If an attack states all characters in a company face a strike, then effects which allow a
character to face more than one strike have no effect against the attack. Similarly,
effects that change the attack's number of strikes have no effect. As an exception,
effects which reduce the number of strikes to a specific number do work.
  • They face a Cave-drake (2@10 attacker chooses).
In this case a timing is not defined by rules.
Either:
a) Skin-changer's (or Deftness of Agility's) effect may interrupt a process of assigning strikes. I.e. when attacker chooses Beorn (or when defender chooses character to face a strike from Dragon's attack), then his opponent has option to assign second strike to Beorn (choosen character), then attacker (defender for Deftness of Agilit) is assigning eventual remaining strikes.
b) Both effects cannot interrupt a process of assigning strikes. Then Skin-changer's (or Deftness of Agility's) player can assign eventual excess strikes.

Many Foes He Fought contains phrase "If defender chooses a warrior to be target [...]" which limits use of the card to situation when defender is first to assign a strikes.
If lack of such limitation for Skin-changer/Deftness could have any meaning (and not be ICE's mistake) then (a) makes more sense. In case of (b) the advantage of not having such limitation would be very low.
  • They enter Ruined Signal Tower (Spiders 2@8).
Defender is first to assign a strikes, so he can assign both to Beorn.
  • They enter Tharbad (Men 3@6).
Defender is first to assign a strikes, so he can assign two to Beorn. Third (or first) is assigned to Radagast.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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kober
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Re: Skin-changer

Post by kober » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:03 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
  • They enter Ruined Signal Tower (Spiders 2@8).
Defender is first to assign a strikes, so he can assign both to Beorn.
If Beorn was wounded, and Radagast was untapped, when the company is entering RST, would it still be possible to assign both strikes to Beorn?

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Skin-changer

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:48 pm

Skin-Changer wrote:Only playable on Beorn. Until the end of the turn, his prowess and body are each modified by +2. If Beorn is chosen to be the target of a strike from an attack, he may choose to face a second strike from that attack (he faces a seperate strike sequence for each strike). Beorn makes a corruption check modified by -2 after any attack made against his company. If still in play at the end of the turn, place Beorn in your hand. Any items he bears may be transferred to unwounded characters in his company (no corruption checks are required).
Strike assignment happens before any strikes are resolved. If Radagast is assigned a strike and then Beorn is assigned a strike, Beorn may use Skin-Changer's ability to alter the strike that was assigned to Radagast and assign it to himself instead, since the requirements on the card are met. I assume, though it is not explicitly stated, that if there are strikes remaining, the attacker may choose to then allocate a different strike to Radagast, since Radagast is not now currently a chosen target of a strike.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Skin-changer

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:23 pm

If it would be possible to assign an already assigned strike to other character, then Skin-changer, or Many Foes He Fought would overcome One Foe to Breed a War, Deftness of Agility, Half An Eye Open.
Also someone could wait until all strikes of attack will be assigned and then play Deftness of Agility (preferably to reassign a strike already assigned to bearer of Wormsbane to weakest of characters already assigned a strike).
Or play One Foe to Breed a War on character not assigned a strike just when all strikes of attack are assigned and then unassign strongest character.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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kober
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Re: Skin-changer

Post by kober » Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:01 am

So, trying to answer my question: Radagast is not tapped, thus the first (out of two) strike is assigned to him and the remaining strike gets assigned to (wounded) Beorn. Skin-changer may still be played (+2/+2 bonus), however, since there are no unassigned strikes left, Beorn is limited to facing just a single strike from the attack. Correct?

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Skin-changer

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:33 am

My answer is "yes".

Rules do not forbid explicitly a reassigning an already assigned strikes, but they do not provide any procedure that would regulate such process.
Who would decide a which of already assigned strikes will be unassigned? Player who uses a special ability? Player who is first to choose a defending characters? Other options (there are scenarios where some strikes are forcefully assigned to certain characters, and some other are assigned by players)?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Skin-changer

Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:36 pm

My first impulse would be to say the player of the card initiating the effect would be the one to choose.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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kober
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Re: Skin-changer

Post by kober » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:11 am

If the already-assigned strikes cannot be reassigned, I can imagine three scenarios for the following story.

The background:
Character A, Beorn, Character C, all three being tapped (and holding Cram), have just moved to a site with two-strike automatic attack.

The players:
- Resource (RP), with Skin-changer on his hand,
- Hazard (HP).

Scenario #1:
- RP: "The company is entering the site."
- HP: "First strike to Character A, second to Beorn."
- RP: "Doh."

Scenario #2:
- RP: "The company is entering the site."
- HP: "First strike to Beorn, second to Character A."
- RP: "Skin-changer!"
- HP: "Too late! Strikes cannot be reassigned."
- RP: "Doh."

Scenario #3:
- RP: "The company is entering the site."
- HP: "First strike to Beorn, ..."
- RP: "Skin-changer!"
- HP: "Doh."

Should the outcome depend on the order in which the character names are mentioned? Or how quick the strikes are assigned?

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Skin-changer

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:28 am

If the already-assigned strikes cannot be reassigned, it depends on fact whether there are remaining unassigned strikes and remaining target characters.
When HP is first to choose a defending characters, Skin-changer's ability is less useful (still a strike which would be otherwise excess strike may taken by Beorn).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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kober
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Re: Skin-changer

Post by kober » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:49 am

Skin-changer wrote:[...] If still in play at the end of the turn, place Beorn in your hand [...]
May Beorn that has been just placed in my hand during a resolution of Skin-changer be brought back to play with A Chance Meeting during the very same turn?
A Chance Meeting, CoE Clarifications #10 wrote:May be played on your turn during any phase the company is at a site.
End of a phase/turn, CoE Clarification #24 wrote:[...] This period begins when all players announce that they will not declare any actions other than AEP* [...]
*AEP: Actions that may be taken at (or are triggered by) the end of a given phase or turn only.
I assume it may not.

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the Jabberwock
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Re: Skin-changer

Post by the Jabberwock » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:35 am

kober wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:49 am
May Beorn that has been just placed in my hand during a resolution of Skin-changer be brought back to play with A Chance Meeting during the very same turn?

I assume it may not.
I would say you are correct. The "end of turn" would take place after all other "end of turn phase" actions have resolved and just prior to your opponent beginning his next turn. Thus, the only action that could possibly take place after Beorn returns to your hand from Skin-Changer would be another "end of turn" action. A Chance Meeting would not qualify.

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Re: Skin-changer

Post by rezwits » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:11 pm

zirilan wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:44 am
Skin-changer

I have a couple of questions about Skin-changer and its effects to some situations.
What is possible and what isn't possible (Example with Radagast & Beorn in a company):
  • They enter Ruined Signal Tower (Spiders 2@8).
  • They enter Tharbad (Men 3@6).
  • They face a Cave-drake (2@10 attacker chooses).
  • They face the Arthadan Rangers (Dúnedain each@10/6).
In which of above cases would Radagast have to face a strike from an attack
and in what cases can Beorn with Skin-changer protect him?
Who gets the -1 prowess modification?
---===---
When entering Ruined Signal Tower if you want you could have Beorn face both strikes of the Spider(s):
in the simplest case, 9/11 then 8/11, tapping and tapped.* see exception below.

---===---
When entering Tharbad, you can choose for Beorn to face 2 strikes at 6 prowess
vs his prowesses as in the previous example 9/11 & 8/11.*
Radagast would have to face 1 strike at 6.
[OR]
When entering Tharbad, you could choose for Beorn to NOT face 2 strikes, and combat would be handled as
usual with your opponent assigning the -1 prowess to whichever character he chooses
and each of them facing a 6 prowess strike.

---===---
When facing Cave-drake, for simplicity's sake, the Cave-drake would assign it's strikes 1st from the strike sequence, not leaving you the opportunity to "take" a strike away from someone else. The wording of Skin-changer does not mention any overriding of the assignment of a strike which in the Cave-drake's case happens first, so in praticality, the Skin-changer's text refers to when YOU are choosing to assign strikes. It simply does NOT state that you may re-assign strikes. And the order is clear:

Unless there is an effect which allows a player to assign the strikes of the attack (i.e.the Cave-drake) the Cave-drake's strike assignment goes first.
(also, Skin-changer, says "is chosen", not "is assigned.")
---===---
Similar to the Cave-drake, the Arthedain Rangers make each character face a strike. So these are assigned, immediately. But I would definitly use the CRF Konrad quoted, for your basis/foundation.

---===---
* Exception, I left this part here because this is tricky.
There is an optional rule which allows a character to choose to face multiple strikes, much in this fashion like Skin-changer, but the character takes a -3 penalty. BUT
in the DC General Rules, they state this:
ICE; tapping to face multiple strikes. During strike assignment, if an untapped character is assigned a strike from an attack and you assign any other strikes of the attack, you may assign another strike of the attack to this character. The character must tap to face the first strike, and his prowess against both strikes is modified by -3. This may only be done if the character is able to tie both strikes with his modified prowess (i.e. including the -3/-4 modifications). The second strike is faced in a separate strike sequence immediately following the first strike.

IF USING THAT (optional) RULE! Then in the Ruined Signal Tower example:
Beorn might have to TAP, and then be at 9/11 then 8/11

BUT IF NOT USING THAT optional RULE (initially from the METW Rulebook pg 64)

I would think Beorn could face BOTH SPIDER strikes at 6/11 and 6/11.

The only place I could find that he MUST TAP, is from the DC rules, but like I said that applies if you take a -3/-4 penalty for taking the 2nd strike.

Which Beorn is not taking a -3 at ALL, so he should be able to pull off the 6/11 twice UNTAPPED!

That's a playgroup/dreamcard decision tho... because it's an Optional Rule in Standard and an Absolute Rule in DC (but only if you take a -3 meaning you can't take a -3 and another -3 to be untapped, i.e. -6, but he isn't taking two -3s just one -3)... like I said tricky!

PEACE!

n.b. The only understanding of WHY in DC you couldn't face the strikes Untapped, was because "Oh I get it you can't take two -3s", but Like I said, Beorn isn't taking a -3 just a -3 to stay untapped... hmpf
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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