Council of Elrond

AfIk I can play cards at the Free Council that reduce a character's corruption point total or prevent a character from being discarded.

Is it correct the following cards can be played?
- Marvels Told to discard a corruption card on a character?
- Marvels Told do discard The Balance of Things?
- Free To Choose on a character?
- Elf Song if company is in a haven? (NB it is a long event)
- Glamour of Surpassing Excellence?

Only resources that directly affect corruption checks may be played during the Free Council. This includes cards that reduce a character's corruption point total or prevent a character from being discarded.

Marvels Told on a Corruption Card: Yes; it directly affects the corruption check by reducing the total.
Marvels Told on Balance of Things: Yes, as above.
Free to Choose: Yes, as above.
Elf-Song: Long events may only be played during the long event phase.
Glamour: Yes, discarding the cards would reduce the CP total.

An example of a card that could not be played would be an untapper to allow a character to tap to support.

Bandobras Took wrote:

An example of a card that could not be played would be an untapper to allow a character to tap to support.

Ok, thanks! So, a character bearing Cram cannot discard the item during the council to tap to support another character's corruption check, then?

Exactly, because it is not a direct effect, but rather a two-stop process.

but discarding cram does affect the corruption total of the bearer, since it is an item with 1 corruption point.
so discarding it during the council should be fine.

Ooops; good point.

thorondor wrote:but discarding cram does affect the corruption total of the bearer, since it is an item with 1 corruption point.
so discarding it during the council should be fine.

The question is, whether it's allowed to discard Cram for no effect (as that reduces cp's) or whether also the effect of untapping is applied - as that is not an effect on the cps.

Isn't it written in the rules that you cannot play something without effect (you cannot play a Twilight just to discard it, you have to achieve something by playing it)? If you are allowed to discard cram during the Council to reduce your CP, the untapping effect should be applied, as it is the result of discarding the cram, isn't it?

This includes cards that reduce a character's corruption point total or prevent a character from being discarded.

Direct result of any card that causes testing a gold ring item is discarding the gold ring item.
All gold ring items are sources of CP. Some special ring items too, but who said that reduction may not have a side effects?

Bandobras Took wrote:[...]
Marvels Told on Balance of Things: Yes, as above.
[...]

This would create a casus that would open gate for the following:

Gates of Morning (if Free to Choose is in play).
Any resources that reduce amount of Stage Points (if Inner Rot is in play).

However a playing Marvels Told on Wound of Long Burden would be illegal if:
- character would have other source of corruption worth 2CP or more AND
- would not have other sources of corruption worth 1CP or less AND
- The Balance of Things would be in play.

because net effect would increase the character CP total.

thorondor wrote:but discarding cram does affect the corruption total of the bearer, since it is an item with 1 corruption point.

Yes.

thorondor wrote:so discarding it during the council should be fine.

No.
Using a resource does not constitute a playing the resource.

Mordakai wrote:If you are allowed to discard cram during the Council to reduce your CP, the untapping effect should be applied, as it is the result of discarding the cram, isn't it?

Formally Cram is never discarded to reduce CP. Likewise formally Marvels Told is never played to have a tapped sage.
Such goals are side effects of fulfilling a conditions.

Konrad Klar wrote:

thorondor wrote:but discarding cram does affect the corruption total of the bearer, since it is an item with 1 corruption point.

Yes.

thorondor wrote:so discarding it during the council should be fine.

No.
Using a resource does not constitute a playing the resource.

In that case, I can't find any rule that prevents the use of resources during the Free Council.

Mordakai wrote:If you are allowed to discard cram during the Council to reduce your CP, the untapping effect should be applied, as it is the result of discarding the cram, isn't it?

Formally Cram is never discarded to reduce CP. Likewise formally Marvels Told is never played to have a tapped sage.
Such goals are side effects of fulfilling a conditions.

Not sure who's saying what here, but . . .

Cram wrote:Discard to untap bearer.

Discarding Cram is the active condition of untapping the bearer; if the bearer cannot untap, you may not discard cram. However, pending somebody finding a rule/ruling that says resources can't be used at the Free Council (as opposed to played), discarding Cram is just fine.

Bandobras Took wrote:In that case, I can't find any rule that prevents the use of resources during the Free Council.

From the other hand I cannot find any rule that allows a player for taking any activity (i.e. not limited to exceptions) not in it's turn.
If it comes to using (tapping, discarding) a resources, a player is not at better position than he would be in turn of its opponent.

For me, then, the most sensible position is to allow the use of resources during the Free Council under the same conditions as the play of resources is allowed.

Blur vs. precision - 1:0, then.

P.S.
See upcoming thread "Curiosity: When I Know Anything in opponent's turn".

You may both play cards and use resources already in the game:

CRF: Only resources that directly affect corruption checks may be played during the Free Council. This includes cards that reduce a character's corruption point total or prevent a character from being discarded.

Thanks, Mikko

From where that sudden conclusion?
This rule has been mentioned in second post of this thread.