roadblock cards

The place to ask and debate all rules issues related to MECCG.
Poniatowski
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:17 pm
Location: Western PA USA

Wow, a big read.... I will attempt to chime in, please, returning player.... be kind.... slap me but don't insult me if I saw it wrong.

OK... first off.... global hazards wind up being played by either player of course...

The cards: snow storm and long winter are redundant, except for losing the site card. One is a short action and the other long, but has lasting environmental effects.

It comes down to a first in, first out AND card relevance/timing as neither card text says it takes precedence over the other....

BUT:
Snowstorm ALWAYS goes off first as to meet the requirements for the card you only need 1 wilderness.

Long Winter requires 2 wilderness in the site path.... you can argue that the 2 wilderness are established in the route determination to the site, BUT....

The game mechanics are such that the party, IF using region movement for hazard sake, would play one region at a time and the Hazard player would play based upon the region cards player....

Therefore, one wilderness definitely comes before 2.... There would be NO reason for the Hazard player to put snowstorm out and then play long winter next..... long winter is the most damaging, even if using region movement, the snowstorm would bounce the player back as soon as one wilderness appears in the movement.

Per the hazard phase rules.... as long the requirements are met for playing said hazard, it can be played.... for ease of explanation, if I had a hazard that required one wilderness.... I could play it on the party and see what it does, if it didn't have the desired effect, I could then play snowstorm and bounce the party back to their original site.

It is a timing issue, not you choose the order of resolution.... as long as the requirements to play the card are met, the hazards are played and resolved in order. This is per tournament rulings I did in the US for many years.

The ONLY exception is if the card text trumps the general rules.

A hazard must be played as the party moves.... say W,W,R.... you couldn't play a ruins card and then throw down a snowstorm....even though the requirements were met, the ruins is the last place in the move... meaning that you couldn't play it unless the party move into/through that region. I believe it all comes down to timing....

The reality comes down to this.... you draw hazards based upon the site path laid out by the acting player.... the acting player travels region by region until they get to their FINAL destination.... one region at a time..... the hazard player gets to draw hazards based upon this path and to play the hazards, the acting player must meet the requirements to be played.....

So, say I am moving W,W, R.... you draw your hazards.... you couldn't start with a hazard based upon the ruins and lairs BEFORE you played one requiring one wilderness.... the one wilderness hazard would be triggered BEFORE the ruins and lairs no matter how you lay those cards out. Brigands cannot attack you if they are only played in R&L.. likewise, say wolves or whatever will not be attacking you in the ruins and lairs if they are a wilderness based hazard... the hazards are played IN THE ORDER THAT THEY BECOME RELEVANT.... not the order anyone chooses them to become relevant.

Ok, that's how I remember it so many years ago as a tournament director. This is how the game was intended to be played.... believe me, this I do know. Let the beating begin....
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Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
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Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Hombarus wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:50 pm A)
The ruling is perfectly fine because it was based on democratic decision of players. Which reminds me of the fantastic quote from a wise person: "Democracy is when 9 janitors rule against the 1 Nobel Price winner scientist". Fits the bill perfectly here.
Fortunately, nothing is decided in Rules Question sub forum that would oblige others to anything.
Users ask and users answers how rules work and why.

In Rules@Errata sub forum it is decided in voting which erratas/clarifications should be included in game and which not.
Each member of the forum is authorized to vote.
But still no one is forced to play according to the rules decided here or elsewhere.
9 Nobel Price winners may create their own playgroup that plays according to different rules than a rules that 91 janitors prefer to respect.
(Proportion: Nobel Price winners/janitors may be different).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Poniatowski
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:17 pm
Location: Western PA USA

Well said Konrad..... In the end, it is a game, have fun.... don't try to break or bend the rules to your specific play style or will.... leave that for Sauron!

Questions come up. In the US.. Americans play to win.. by any means.... we are notorious for reading into the rules what we want them to say...... The card texts are pretty straight forward... ICE did a really good job in my opinion.... step back and re-read the cards.... they are usually pretty straight forward in their intent and meaning... if you always look for loopholes, you will find them....
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Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
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Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Poniatowski wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:48 pm Americans play to win.. by any means....
Poniatowski wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:48 pm if you always look for loopholes, you will find them....
If you are searching for new means to win, you may find a loophole, or something what looks like loophole
(something intended, but that can be leveraged in way not planned by authors).

And even if players want to win by any means they usually agree that a judge in the game should be neutral and fair.
There may be no person who acts as a judge. But there may be set of interpretations, or erratas that a participating players agree to obey.
For some a legacy of ICE is enough (they may claim so, although I do not know, how they cope with some situations that may appear in game), some others need something more.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Hombarus
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:11 pm

@Poniatowski (I hope the spelling is right)

I could not agree more. More or less my proposal states the same. The company moves along the route and if they start their journey lets say in Edoras - Rohan, which is [-me_bl-] then Snowstorm has no effect. I can still key creatures to [-me_bl-] or Rohan. Then they arrive to Wold and Foothills which is a [-me_wi-]. They still reach it. I can key creatures to [-me_wi-] or Wold and Foothills, however! The Snowstorm is triggered.
Now they must return to the site of their origin.

The current ruling says they never actually left it. Question is: How can you return somewhere where you never left?
What have you guys done to [-me_eye-] I used to love?!
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Konrad Klar
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Hombarus wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:57 pm The current ruling says they never actually left it.
Which exactly?
Hombarus wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:57 pm Question is: How can you return somewhere where you never left?
Actually you did not moved anywhere, and you have not returned.
Not sure about your company. You did not even said where, in your scenario, the company is moving to.
Maybe it does not need to be announced prior movement according to the rules you are follow.
You knows, not me.

If some situation cannot happen according to rules (interpretation of them) that you are rejecting, you cannot find an answer in the rules (interpretation of them) you are rejecting.

P.S.
A socialism is specific civic, that faces a problems not encountered in any other civics.
(polish anecdote)
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Hombarus
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:11 pm

"must return" - thank you very please
What have you guys done to [-me_eye-] I used to love?!
Hombarus
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:11 pm

The one that says no creatures can be played. For they had left the site a creature could be keyed the very least to the region they are in.
What have you guys done to [-me_eye-] I used to love?!
Hombarus
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:11 pm

And I gave you a thorough breakdown of who moves where 3 pages above. Then another one where you asked me how to resolve ahunt vs snowstorm. And I gave you one just now: Edoras to anywhere through Wold and Foothills.

That is why this debate is so difficult because you did not readed my comments.
What have you guys done to [-me_eye-] I used to love?!
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Konrad Klar
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Hombarus wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:57 pm The one that says no creatures can be played. For they had left the site a creature could be keyed the very least to the region they are in.
That is exactly "The current ruling [that] says they never actually left it"?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Hombarus
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:11 pm

Ok.

Then I am asking:

Have they left the site or not?
What have you guys done to [-me_eye-] I used to love?!
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Konrad Klar
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If you mean a company moving from Edoras and Snowstorm is in play, the company leaves Edoras.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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Konrad Klar
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Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
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...whether there is [-me_wi-] in its path, or not.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Hombarus
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:11 pm

Ok, so I can play creature keyed to Rohan or [-me_bl-] ?
What have you guys done to [-me_eye-] I used to love?!
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Konrad Klar
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Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Against that company (with [-me_wi-] in its path)?
At beginning of M/H phase - no.
Later - it depends whether the company will be eventually returned, or not.

Go to for more detailed explanation.
It does not matter whether [-me_wi-] is first region symbol in company's path or no.

Similarly if company moves from Edoras to Beorn's House (Rohan [-me_bl-], Wold & Foothills [-me_wi-], Anduin Vales [-me_bl-]) and Snowstorm is not in play, creatures may be played against the company in order like:

Assassin,
Land-Drake,
Stout Men of Gondor.

that does not correlate with order in which the regions are traveled, and a new site arrived.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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