roadblock cards

[peril returned]

Hi everyone

I have just started trying the roadblock cards and they have thrown up a few questions that I hope you can answer.

If a snowstorm is in play, can I "attempt" to move and draw cards, have hazards played on me and then return to my site of origin? Or is it that once snowstorm is in play, you cannot leave your site if it is in a wilderness (or would have a wilderness in the site path) and therefore cannot draw cards.

Further, if a long winter or foul fumes is in play (and a snowstorm if necessary) if I am returned to my site of origin, does it also tap the site I was travelling to if it meets the requirements of the winter/fumes and therefore discarded, or can I return it to my location deck.

Thanks very much for your help.

[Muad'Dib]

-> Snowstorm

First you move, draw cards and bounce. Opponent cant play creatures against you

-> Long Winter/Foul Fumes
You tap all revealed sites in play, including these where you were moving and these you were leaving.

[Konrad Klar]

The actions created by cards like Snowstorm, or Long Winter (i.e. "return a company to its site of origin", "tap a sites with in its site path") do not happen immediately.
When conditions that activate the actions are met (which may happen at the start of M/H phase, or in middle of chain of effects), the actions are declared as first action of next chain of effects.
Order of the declarations (if there is more than one such action) is choosen by player proceding its turn.
So players may declare in response to the actions anything that does not need to be first declared action of chain of effects (no creatures, no other actions that cause immediate attack(s), no corruption cards), before the action will resolve.
If the card that cause the action will be removed before the action will resolve, and/or if the condition that activate the action (e.g. in company's site path) will be removed before the action will resolve, the action will be canceled.

In particular case when "return a company to its site of origin" and "tap a sites with (or with ) in its site path)", are declared as first of actions of chain of effect, whether new site will be tapped, or not, will depend on order of declarations.
If "tap sites" is declared a first, and "return to the site of origin" as second, the site will be removed from table when the company will be returned.
The action "tap sites" will not affect it.
(Assuming that the company has been actually returned, and that there is no effect that keep the site on table, e.g. the site was not the site already on table choosen as new site in organization phase for any moving company).

[peril returned]

Thanks for the responses guys!
My brain did melt a little with the conditions/actions/declarations/chain of effects.
But now I understand that if I'm snowstormed I can at least draw some cards in hopes of getting out of it somehow.
Thanks again

[the JabberwocK]

So players may declare in response to the actions anything that does not need to be first declared action of chain of effects (no creatures, no other actions that cause immediate attack(s), no corruption cards), before the action will resolve.

So I may play Twilight, correct?

Scenario:
I begin the M/H phase for a company traveling from Moria to Lorien. Snowstorm is already in play (suspended with Will of Sauron). My opponent and I both draw cards. I declare a Twilight targeting the Snowstorm. My Twilight resolves and Snowstorm is discarded. My company continues to Lorien. Correct?

This is legal because Twilight does not need to be the first declared action in a chain of effects?

Where can I find the list of all card types which must be the first declared action in a chain of effects so that I know what is and is not legal to play before the Snowstorm effect resolves and sends my company back to Moria? Or is it only the ones you listed that must be a first declared action (creatures, actions that cause an attack, corruption cards)... and everything else is allowed?

In particular case when "return a company to its site of origin" and "tap a sites with (or with ) in its site path)", are declared as first of actions of chain of effect, whether new site will be tapped, or not, will depend on order of declarations.
If "tap sites" is declared a first, and "return to the site of origin" as second, the site will be removed from table when the company will be returned.
The action "tap sites" will not affect it.
(Assuming that the company has been actually returned, and that there is no effect that keep the site on table, e.g. the site was not the site already on table choosen as new site in organization phase for any moving company).

To make sure I understand what you are saying here, I'd like to clarify:

Doors of Night is in play. If my company is moving from Isengard to The Stones, and both Long Winter and Snowstorm are already in play: the hazard player will declare which passive action takes place first. If he declares Long Winter first and Snowstorm second, then Snowstorm will resolve first, sending my company back and The Stones will be returned to my location deck before it can be tapped. If, however, the hazard player declares that Snowstorm's effect will resolve first, and Long Winter second, then Long Winter will resolve first (tapping The Stones), and then Snowstorm will resolve, sending my company back and sending The Stones (tapped) to the discard pile.
Do I have this right?

[Konrad Klar]

So I may play Twilight, correct?

Yes.

Scenario:
I begin the M/H phase for a company traveling from Moria to Lorien. Snowstorm is already in play (suspended with Will of Sauron). My opponent and I both draw cards. I declare a Twilight targeting the Snowstorm. My Twilight resolves and Snowstorm is discarded. My company continues to Lorien. Correct?

This is legal because Twilight does not need to be the first declared action in a chain of effects?

Yes.

Where can I find the list of all card types which must be the first declared action in a chain of effects so that I know what is and is not legal to play before the Snowstorm effect resolves and sends my company back to Moria? Or is it only the ones you listed that must be a first declared action (creatures, actions that cause an attack, corruption cards)... and everything else is allowed?

Creatures, other actions that cause immediate attack(s), corruption cards.

Doors of Night is in play. If my company is moving from Isengard to The Stones, and both Long Winter and Snowstorm are already in play: the hazard player will declare which passive action takes place first. If he declares Long Winter first and Snowstorm second, then Snowstorm will resolve first, sending my company back and The Stones will be returned to my location deck before it can be tapped. If, however, the hazard player declares that Snowstorm's effect will resolve first, and Long Winter second, then Long Winter will resolve first (tapping The Stones), and then Snowstorm will resolve, sending my company back and sending The Stones (tapped) to the discard pile.
Do I have this right?

Resource player decides about order of declarations (if multiple actions compete to be first action declared in chain of effects).

"If, however, the hazard player declares that Snowstorm's effect will resolve first, and Long Winter second, then Long Winter will resolve first (tapping The Stones), and then Snowstorm will resolve, sending my company back and sending The Stones (tapped) to the discard pile."
I think that you mean:
"If, however, the hazard player declares that Snowstorm's effect will be declared first, and Long Winter second, then Long Winter will resolve first (tapping The Stones), and then Snowstorm will resolve, sending my company back and sending The Stones (tapped) to the discard pile."
Right?

So:
If, however, the resource player declares that Snowstorm's effect will be declared first, and Long Winter second, then Long Winter will resolve first (tapping The Stones), and then Snowstorm will resolve, sending my company back and sending The Stones (tapped) to the discard pile.

is correct. Assuming that the company has a ranger, or there is no in its path.
Otherwise there will be 3 actions competing to be first declared:
- return company (from Snowstorm),
- return company (from Long-Winter),
- tap non-Haven sites with in their path.

[Hombarus]

@Pawel - or anyone with insight on the game dynamics

Where on earth did you get it from that once Snowstorm is in play, no creatures can be played?

The actual card - Snowstorm - says:

Environment. Playable only if Doors of Night is in play. Each moving company with a in its site path must return to its site of origin. Cannot be duplicated. "The wind whistled and the snow became a blinding blizzard."-LotRII

My point is. The M/H phase progresses as usual. Drawing cards, playing hazards. However, the company never reaches the new site, they must return.

Can you please me bring me an exact rule that denies me playing creatures? Not intuitive thoughts or feelings, actual rules.

Thanks.

[Konrad Klar]

At a beginning of company's M/H phase a first declared action is*:
"Return a company to the site of origin" (if Snowstorm is in play and company moves through ).

Effects that potentially create an immediate attack (this includes a creatures), and Corruption cards cannot be declared by players in response.
They can only be declared by players as first action of a chain of effects.

Of course if a company will not be returned to the site of origin for any reason (e.g. Snowstorm will be discarded or all in company's path will be removed before resolution of "Return a company to the site of origin"), then a action than can only be declared as first action of a chain of effects may be declared as first action of new chain of effects.

*) to be precise: multiple actions may compete to be "a first declared action".
It may be "Return a company to the site of origin" from Snowstorm, and/or identical action from Long Winter, and/or attack from Dragon Ahunt.
In such case order of declarations of such actions is decided by player taking his turn (a "resource player").

[Konrad Klar]

Some "exact rules":

Rules Erratum: Corruption cards must always start a chain of effects. [Effective 8/27/
98]

Annotation 15: An attack must be the first declared action in a chain of effects; i.e., a creature card may not be played in response to another card in the same chain of effects. Revealing an on-guard creature is an exception.
@ Any card that has the potential to immediately create an attack is considered an attack for purposes of interpreting Annotation 15. [CoE] %

[Vastor Peredhil]

Returning to Site of Origin: Also known as "bouncing." This is an effect which sends a moving
company back to the site they started at.
● If a company returns to its site of origin, its site path immediately disappears, and its movement/
hazard phase immediately ends. (CRF)
● An effect that returns a company to its site of origin may not be declared in the middle of an
attack. (CRF)
● Rules Erratum: If a company returns to its site of origin, it may do nothing during its site phase.
A company failing its Under-deeps movement roll is not affected by this rule. (CRF)
● A company that gets sent back to its site of origin is not considered to have moved to that site
this turn. (CRF, CoE)
● Because the movement/hazard phase immediately ends, there is no opportunity to play any
further cards, even those playable at the end of a movement/hazard phase. (Van, 582)

[CDavis7M]

Let me see if I understand:

Say a player travels from Lorien to the Lonely Mountain with Smaug Ahunt and Snowstorm in play already (either, they played it themselves the previous turn as the hazard player, or Will of Sauron, etc)

If the resource player really wants to, they can declare action sequence such that the ahunt dragon will resolve first, attacking his company, before bouncing (snow storm resolves later)? (Not that they would get any MP or have any other reason to attack poor Smaug).

So, obviously, you'd want to have snowstorm resolve first, bouncing you back before any ahunt dragon can attack (it would "fizzle" so to speak, but it's a long event and so isn't discarded right away)


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[Konrad Klar]

Say a player travels from Lorien to the Lonely Mountain with Smaug Ahunt and Snowstorm in play already (either, they played it themselves the previous turn as the hazard player, or Will of Sauron, etc)

If the resource player really wants to, they can declare action sequence such that the ahunt dragon will resolve first, attacking his company, before bouncing (snow storm resolves later)? (Not that they would get any MP or have any other reason to attack poor Smaug).

Yes.

So, obviously, you'd want to have snowstorm resolve first, bouncing you back before any ahunt dragon can attack (it would "fizzle" so to speak, but it's a long event and so isn't discarded right away)

Not obviously. You may want to kill Smaug Ahunt, or just legaly play a canceling card.
Attack from Smaug Ahunt will fizzle, not the Smaug Ahunt itself.

[Hombarus]

So I might be completely in the wrong, but a M/H phase is not a chain of effects, but each and every played card, for example a corruption card is starting a chain of effects. Therefore a Lure of Nature has nothing to do with Snowstorm, they do not relate to each other.

Also, a snowstorm will end the M/H phase, brought here from an errata file that was written by players is not something I would like to discuss at this point. Let's get back to the actual rules.
What I mean, that all in all, I accept that the current errata written by players who seemingly misunderstand the dynamics of the game is the law. What I need is to pinpoint the rule in the original rules that in any shape or form backs this erratum for ending the M/H phase immediately. I mean where did you get that??

[Hombarus]

More importantly, if a company has to return to the site of origin, why would I be not able to play creatures keyed to the site of origin or the region of the site of origin when the affected company starts it's M/H phase?

Again, for the purpose of the debate, please ignore the erratum that is seemingly not backed up by the rules, unless you pinpoint the rule you base the erratum upon.

[Konrad Klar]

So I might be completely in the wrong, but a M/H phase is not a chain of effects, but each and every played card, for example a corruption card is starting a chain of effects.

Each declared action is part of chain of effects.
An action does not necessarily is declared by player.
ccs from Lure of Nature and "Return a company to the site of origin" from Snowstorm declare themselves (if appropriate conditions are met).

Also, a snowstorm will end the M/H phase, brought here from an errata file that was written by players is not something I would like to discuss at this point. Let's get back to the actual rules.

Not quite.
"Return a company to the site of origin" from Snowstorm, if resolves, ends M/H phase.
But the action first must be declared. Players may play in response something what will discard Snowstorm, or what will remove from company's path all . Then "Return a company to the site of origin" from Snowstorm will not resolve.