Minions playing The Ithil-stone

[Thorsten the Traveller]

If a minion player plays The Ithil-stone, does he still have to do the scout roll?
Is the scout roll part of the playability requirement, or rather an effect of playing it? (and/or does this matter?).

The Ithil-stone writes: Unique. Palantír. Playable at Barad-dûr. When character taps to play the Ithil-stone, make a roll. If the result plus the number of scouts in the company is greater than 9, the Ithil-stone is successfully played. Otherwise, the bearer is eliminated and the Ithil-stone is placed in your out-of-play pile. Bear makes a corruption check at the end of each of his untap phases. Bane of the Ithil-stone is discarded and cannot be played. If the Lidless Eye is in play, its player's hand size decreases by 2."

Mele rules writes: a Ringwraith player may use any hero item resource card as if it were a minion item resource card. Similarly, a Wizard player may use any minion item resource card as if it were a hero item resource card. The following apply:
· All normal requirements must be met to play the item.
· All restrictions to movement still apply.
· All bonuses and special abilities are ignored.
· The item is only worth half (round up) of its normal marshalling points.

[Konrad Klar]

Like in case of a faction: to be able to play the faction card (from hand, or from other source) you do not need to make a dice-roll.
The dice-roll is required to determine whether that playing was successful or not.

The dice-roll in text of The Ithil-stone is not required to play The Ithil-stone card.
The dice-roll is required to determine whether The Ithil-stone will came into play under control of character, or will be placed in your out-of-play pile and would-be bearer will be eliminated.

Whether:

· All normal requirements must be met to play the item.

covers only first stage or both stages is not clear, but if it would cover only first stage then state of The Ithil-stone would be udefined.

This state is not "what happens after playing", but "in which of possible ways it was played".
Example of "what happens after playing" is the Trap attack that happens after playing of Forgotten Scrolls.

[Bandobras Took]

If the result plus the number of scouts in the company is greater than 9, the Ithil-stone is successfully played.

· All normal requirements must be met to play the item.

The roll is an additional requirement, because only if the roll succeeds is the card played. But that requirement is still a normal one for the purposes of the rules. "Normal" means as written on the card, without considering other cards' effects.

Likewise, a faction has not been actually played until the influence check succeeds. The influence check is part of the normal requirement of playing the faction.

Cards are not in play until they resolve in their chain of effects. No elements of the card may be targeted until the card resolves, except dice-rolling actions.

The chain for playing your average factions card is:

Declare->Declare Cards That Affect Dice Roll->Cards Affecting Dice Roll Resolve->Make Roll: Faction Is Either Played Or Discarded

The chain is similar for Ithil-Stone, except that I do not know of any cards that would affect that dice roll.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

So in short, yes you have to do the check
Well in the case of factions one could argue there is no full stop between the playability line and the line about the influence check, so it's still the same sentence. But as Ithil-stone mentions explicitly "succesfully played", there's little room around it.
thanks for your help.

[Konrad Klar]

The phrase "successfully played" has been used by ICE here without care.
If low result of dice-roll means "unsuccessfully played" then what to say if would-be bearer has been eliminated before by other action in chain of effects?
E.g. in response to playing The Ithil-stone a shadow-magic using character has played Well-Preserved on other character and failed cc.

In case of a faction, if low result of influence check means that the faction has not been played successfully, the what about situation when Hold Rebuilt and Repaired has been played successfully on Lossadan Cairn in response to Ice-Orcs?

A cards and other declared actions may resolve, or fizzle. This is the one success (or lack of it).
A dice-rolls may be successful or not. And this is another success (or lack of it).

It is not objective to say that successful dice-roll required by card/action means success.

Player may have its own criteria. Sauron player may prefer to remove The Ithil-stone from play for good and by occasion to eliminate a problematic character, rather than to have The Ithil-stone under control this character and to transport The Ithil-stone to dark-haven, where it may be stored.

Player with a company at Grey Havens may urgently want to release some cards from hand, but he cannot just discard them. So he must try to play Elves of Lindon, but... his opponent has Elves of Lindon in play and Alliance of Free Peoples is in play and it gives that player a lot more MP than it gives to his opponent. So for that player an unsuccessful influence check will be the success (if he cannot manage to fizzle Elves of Lindon).

P.S.
Strange stories, I know, but not impossible.

[Bandobras Took]

The phrase "successfully played" has been used by ICE here without care.
If low result of dice-roll means "unsuccessfully played" then what to say if would-be bearer has been eliminated before by other action in chain of effects?
E.g. in response to playing The Ithil-stone a shadow-magic using character has played Well-Preserved on other character and failed cc.

If there's no valid bearer for the play of an item when the play of the card resolves, then the play fizzles and the item will be discarded.

Just as happens when one attempts to play a hazard and the hazard limit is lowered in response. Was the hazard successfully played? No. Because one necessary condition (sufficient hazard limit) failed to be true.

With Ithil-Stone, the card itself provides another condition for the successful play of the card. There is no inconsistency here.

In case of a faction, if low result of influence check means that the faction has not been played successfully, the what about situation when Hold Rebuilt and Repaired has been played successfully on Lossadan Cairn in response to Ice-Orcs?

In order to play a faction card, you must tap one of your characters that is at the "site" indicated on the faction's card.

I read that as an active condition of declaring the play of a faction card. Since the character must still be in play and tapped when the card resolves, it would still require the character to be at the site in question. If they are not, the play of the faction fizzles because the requirements for its play are not met.

It is not objective to say that successful dice-roll required by card/action means success.

It is, however, completely objective to say that a special item

states at what sites and under which conditions it is "playable."

Ithil-Stone lists its conditions. One of those is the check which, with perfect aptness, tells you whether the card is successfully played or not. Just as factions tell you whether they are successfully played or not by means of influence check.

Player may have its own criteria.

That is true. It is also irrelevant to the question. We aren't talking about what they player wants to do with a card; we are talking about what the card says must be done in order to successfully play it.

[Konrad Klar]

We aren't talking about what they player wants to do with a card; we are talking about what the card says must be done in order to successfully play it.

I'm talking what is, and what is not, requirement to play per se.
As you said "Cards are not in play until they resolve in their chain of effects." The Ithil-stone would not have a chance of being placed in out-of-play pile if the action "play The Ithil-stone" would not resolve in its chain of effects.

[Bandobras Took]

The text of Ithil-Stone also modifies the normal result of an unsuccessful attempt to play a card. The roll and its result -- whether successful or unsuccessful -- are part of resolving the card play action.