Morgul-Knife vs The Pale Sword

[Jose-san]

The text on Morgul-Knife makes clear that a character can't heal until he removes this card. The text on The Pale Sword is different. Does a character with The Pale Sword have the option to heal at a haven instead removing it?

[Konrad Klar]

A Nazgûl's prowess is modified by +2. Discard if attack doesn't wound a character. Corruption. One character (attacker's choice) wounded by an attack modified by this card receives 4 corruption points. If at a Haven during his untap phase, a character with this card may attempt to remove it (but not untap or heal). Make a roll (or draw a #): if this result is greater than 4, discard this card. Cannot be duplicated on a given Nazgûl.

Unique. A Nazgûl's prowess is modified by +1. If used with the Witch-king of Angmar, his prowess is increased by +1 plus the number of Nazgûl permanent-events in play. Discard if attack doesn't wound a character. Corruption. One character (attacker's choice) wounded by an attack modified by this card receives 6 corruption points (place this card under the character). If at a Haven [H] during his untap phase, a character with this card may attempt to remove it instead of untapping or healing. Make a roll (or draw a #): if this result is greater than 5, discard this card. Cannot be duplicated on a given Nazgûl.

I understand both texts as options that may (but do not must) be taken in untap phase at haven.
Difference between them is that a character with Morgul-knife does not have an option to untap/heal (he may only, but does not must, make attempt to remove Morgul-knife). Character with The Pale Sword may either make attempt to remove this card, or untap/heal (or do nothing).

Character with one, or multiple of the cards is not prevented from healing, or from untapping. After all texts of both cards assume possibility that attempt of removing them may be made in lieu of untapping (at haven, in untap phase).

Untapped character at haven does not have an option to heal/untap so he cannot make any action in lieu of healing/untapping, thus such character cannot make an attempt to remove Morgul-knife, or The Pale Sword.

[Bandobras Took]

All right, now I'm laughing. It's possible to be well and happy while being impaled with sword and knife, but only if you're not at Rivendell.

[Konrad Klar]

If a character will arrive to Rivendell well and happy, and being impaled with sword and knife, the character will be well and happy, and being impaled with sword and knife also at Rivendell.
(no wonder that personnel of Rivendell will not suspect that such well and happy person may require first aid)

[Jose-san]

This is cool Thanks for the answers!

[Jose-san]

Untapped character at haven does not have an option to heal/untap so he cannot make any action in lieu of healing/untapping, thus such character cannot make an attempt to remove Morgul-knife, or The Pale Sword.

On second thought. Is this true for Morgul-Knife? The text on the card doesn't say "instead of heal/untap".

[Konrad Klar]

It is not so explicitly stated as it is in text of The Pale Sword (twisted style of ICE).

If:
"If at a Haven during his untap phase, a character with this card may attempt to remove it (but not untap or heal)."

would mean that "attempt to remove" may be taken at a Haven during his untap phase (not in lieu untapping or healing)
AND
that character with this card may not untap or heal (if at a Haven during his untap phase),

then after successful attempt to remove Morgul-knife, the character could untap/heal. Because at this point text of Morgul-knife would not be in force.
"but" in "(but not untap or heal)" would be meaningless.

Do you see other possibilities?

[Jose-san]

You made a knot in my brain

I think I almost see your point. But this is above my logic and English level. So I will simply take your word on it and be happy with it

[Konrad Klar]

English is not my native language. I do not want to pretend that it is (and try to use a spurious advantage).

My point in other words:

Wounded character at haven during untap phase has option to heal.
Tapped character at haven (and at non-haven site too) during untap phase has option to untap.
(all other non-site cards during untap phase must untap, unless text of particular card says otherwise)

This means that, contrary to other situations in game, in untap phase a wounded (at haven)/tapped character has a one more option that untapped character has.

The Pale Sword's case is simple: a character may make attempt to remove a card instead "untap/heal". No option to untap/heal = nothing to exchange to attempt.

Morgul-knife's case is: (at haven and in untap phase) a character can make attempt to remove a Morgul-knife, a character cannot untap/heal.

a) If the attempt to remove a Morgul-knife is at cost of resigning from untap/heal, then after attempt the character cannot untap/heal, regardless of result of the attempt.
Only wounded/tapped character is able to pay such cost.
b) If the attempt to remove a Morgul-knife is not at cost of resigning from untap/heal, then after attempt a character can untap/heal, if result of the attempt was success, and (regardless of result) may make attempts to remove eventual other copies of Morgul-knife.
If coincidentally also The Pale Sword is placed on the character and the character is tapped/wounded, then instead performing untap/heal the character may make attempt to remove The Pale Sword.
All in the same untap phase.

In (b) case it is inexplicable why "may attempt to remove it" and "(but not untap or heal)" are in the same sentence.
Maybe it is explicable in other [(c)] case. For that reason I have asked "Do you see other possibilities?".

[dirhaval]

I agree with the notes above.

I was thinking does the tapped or wounded victim receive the -3 penalty during removal?
I think no since that penalty applies when not tapping for a corruption card requiring one to tap.

I was told that such a penalty does not pertain to Foolish Words. I have not searched on this forum about it so you know.
That is one MUST tap to remove Foolish Words and not stay untapped with a -3 penalty since that only works
for corruption as in the rule books METW and MELE. Right?

[Bandobras Took]

The "stay untapped" rule applies specifically to corruption cards, and came about because the hazard strategy on release of the game was 24 corruption cards and Balance of Power.

A character may attempt to remove a corruption card without tapping. The roll is at -3.

If it's a corruption card and you would normally have to tap to make the roll, you can instead attempt it without tapping.

[Jose-san]

In (b) case it is inexplicable why "may attempt to remove it" and "(but not untap or heal)" are in the same sentence.

Ok, I think I understand. Could it mean "(but not untap or heal [unless this card is removed])"? I mean, it works as you described in (b). If the character removes Morgul-knife, he can heal, If he doesn't (because he fails the roll), he can't heal.

[Konrad Klar]

(b) is possible if "but" is meaningless. I.e. option to take attempt to remove a card AND inability to untap/heal at haven in untap phase are unrelated statements.

If some text says:
"at given moment and place a character may take action X (but no Y, or Z)"
I understand it as: when otherwise Y/Z option is presented to a character, he may take option X, but not Y/Z.

[Jose-san]

Ok, I get it now. Thanks for the patience!

[Konrad Klar]

Not being satisfied by simplified answers is a virtue!