how much on-guard cards can be revealed at 1 site?

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Grishnakh
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how much on-guard cards can be revealed at 1 site?

Post by Grishnakh »

In the following situation 2 companies move to the same site and for each company 1 on-guard card was played. So the site now has 2 on-guard cards.
But so far as I know, in the site phase just 1 on-guard card can be revealed for a site.

Some where I read that it's possible to play 1 on-guard card for each company, but in the site phase just 1 on-guard card can be revealed for 1 site.

Is that true, or I'm totally wrong???

Searching for help,
Heiko / Grishnakh [-me_eye-]
Cheers,
Heiko / Grishnakh

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Mordakai
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Re: how much on-guard cards can be revealed at 1 site?

Post by Mordakai »

I played as you say for almost all my life but someone told me a few months ago that there is no limit in the amount of cards that can be revealed in a site if several companies converge there.
Cannot tell you references, but I think the key of the question is that nowhere is written that only a card can be revealed.
Maybe someone else can tell us more...
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...

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Bandobras Took
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Re: how much on-guard cards can be revealed at 1 site?

Post by Bandobras Took »

MELE Rules wrote:PLACING A CARD ON-GUARD
During the movement/hazard phase of your opponent's turn, you may place one card on-guard for each of your opponent's companies. This card is played face down next to the company's new site or next to its current site if it did not move. Any card can be placed on-guard (i.e., it does not have to be a hazard, you can bluff). Such a card does count against the hazard limit for the company it is placed on. The card will remain on that site until one of the following occurs:
· The company decides to face the site's automatic-attack. If the on-guard card is a hazard creature keyed to the company's site or a hazard that can modify the automatic-attack, it may be revealed before the automatic-attack is resolved. If it is a hazard creature, it will attack after the automatic-attack is resolved.
· The company plays a card that potentially taps the site. If the on-guard card is a non-creature hazard, it may be revealed if it is a hazard that directly affects the company or a character in the company (e.g., a hazard that forces all characters to make a corruption check).
· Otherwise, return the card to your hand at the end of the site phase.
In the first two cases, the card is handled as if it had been played during the movement-hazard phase (i.e., short-events are discarded, long-events last until your opponent's next long-event phase, etc.).
The rules for revealing apply to *each* on-guard card played at a site.

On the other hand, I never noticed that there is a maximum limit to the number of on-guards played during your opponent's movement/hazard phase. It's equal to the number of his companies. People have been playing it as one per company's movement/hazard phase, which is not what the rules actually say.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Shapeshifter
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Re: how much on-guard cards can be revealed at 1 site?

Post by Shapeshifter »

CoE weekly Rulings/Clarifications 12 wrote:13. Two separate companies are moving to the same site. I play an on guard card for each company. At the end of the movement/hazard phase, the two companies become one. So,
(a) Does this new, single company face both on guard cards if it enters the site?
(b) Or does the hazard player choose which one to reveal?
(c) Or does something else happen? (Like it turning out to be illegal to play more than one on guard card on a site?)
*** Two on guard cards played on the site is legal in the above situation and you, as the hazard player, may reveal one, both, or none of the on guard cards if the conditions exist for their legal revealing as on guard cards.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: how much on-guard cards can be revealed at 1 site?

Post by Konrad Klar »

During the movement/hazard phase of your opponent's turn, you may place one card on-guard for each of your opponent's companies.
Curious. I have never noticed it.
I think that people have auto-corrected it to "during the movement/hazard phase of each of your opponent's companies you may place one card on-guard", because the text as is problematic.

There is no one M/H phase per turn of player. Each of M/H phases of opponent's companies may be considered as "movement/hazard phase of your opponent's turn".

If an on-guard cards would placed during M/H phase, one card per company, then it often would mean placing on-guard cards on (yet) unrevealed sites.
Doable but choice of appropriate card (such that has chance of being revealed) is obviously harder.

Also hazard player could place appropriate (effective) on-guard card on new site of other company. Effectively distributing otherwise unusable (against company currently proceeding its M/H phase) cards to companies against which they will be effective.
Such a card does count against the hazard limit for the company it is placed on.
This part is certainly hard to apply it as is. Literally it implies that an on-guard is placed on company.
Moreover it is not known how big HL of company that did not take its M/H phase will be and make it impossible to fizzle a placing on-guard by reduction of HL.
And there may be companies that already taken its M/H phases and companies that will be eliminated before their M/H phase. HL for M/H phase of such companies will newer be calculated.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Shapeshifter
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Re: how much on-guard cards can be revealed at 1 site?

Post by Shapeshifter »

During the movement/hazard phase of your opponent's turn, you may place one card on-guard for each of your opponent's companies.
Konrad Klar wrote:There is no one M/H phase per turn of player. Each of M/H phases of opponent's companies may be considered as "movement/hazard phase of your opponent's turn".

If an on-guard cards would placed during M/H phase, one card per company, then it often would mean placing on-guard cards on (yet) unrevealed sites.
Doable but choice of appropriate card (such that has chance of being revealed) is obviously harder.

Also hazard player could place appropriate (effective) on-guard card on new site of other company. Effectively distributing otherwise unusable (against company currently proceeding its M/H phase) cards to companies against which they will be effective.
Such a card does count against the hazard limit for the company it is placed on.
This part is certainly hard to apply it as is. Literally it implies that an on-guard is placed on company.
Moreover it is not known how big HL of company that did not take its M/H phase will be and make it impossible to fizzle a placing on-guard by reduction of HL.
And there may be companies that already taken its M/H phases and companies that will be eliminated before their M/H phase. HL for M/H phase of such companies will newer be calculated.
Did I get you right, Konrad, that the current rules might allow on-guards to be placed on yet unrevealed sites or causing difficulties in calculating/reducing the hazard limit? If this is right, then one could even come up with the thought that an on-guard played on opponent's companies whose m/h-phase has already or not yet been taken does not count against the hazard limit at all. Honestly speaking I don't see how this all could be possible.
CRF wrote:Hazards may only be played on a company whose movement/hazard phase is being resolved, or on the site they are moving to.
CRF wrote:You check the hazard limit at declaration and resolution. At declaration there must be less hazards already declared than the hazard limit. At resolution there must be no more hazards declared than the hazard limit.
Hazards can only be played if there is a hazard limit. The hazard limit is determined at the beginning of a m/h-phase of each single company. That means there is always a revealed site and always a calculated HL which could be reduced by card effects. Or didn't I get your point?

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Re: how much on-guard cards can be revealed at 1 site?

Post by Konrad Klar »

Shapeshifter wrote:Did I get you right, Konrad, that the current rules might allow on-guards to be placed on yet unrevealed sites or causing difficulties in calculating/reducing the hazard limit?
Yes.
Shapeshifter wrote:Or didn't I get your point?
My point is that MELE rule is probably malformed variant of:
"during the movement/hazard phase of each of your opponent's companies you may place one card on-guard"

If someone will try to apply "During the movement/hazard phase of your opponent's turn, you may place one card on-guard for each of your opponent's companies." as is, he/she will have a problems that I have tried to explain.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: how much on-guard cards can be revealed at 1 site?

Post by Bandobras Took »

There is no one M/H phase per turn of player. Each of M/H phases of opponent's companies may be considered as "movement/hazard phase of your opponent's turn".
This is incorrect.
MELE Rules wrote:THE HAZARD LIMIT
During your opponent's movement/hazard phase, the number of hazard cards that you may play on one of your opponent's companies is that company's hazard limit. The hazard limit is equal to two or the company's size, whichever is greater. A company's size is equal to the number of characters in it. For this purpose, allies do not count as characters.
A hazard limit can be modified by the play of certain cards. Tapping a Nazgûl permanent-event does count against the hazard limit.

Clarification: For the purposes of calculating hazard limits, each company's size is determined for each company at the beginning of the movement/hazard phase (e.g., it remains fixed). So, if a character is eliminated during his company's portion of the movement/hazard phase, his company's hazard limit does not change.
The rules make reference numerous times both to an opponent's movement/hazard phase and separately to a company's movement/hazard phase, showing that both are valid designations, and are speaking of different things.

A similar wording is used with An Untimely Brood with regard to site phases: you may only play one ally each of *your* site phases, not each of your *company's* site phases.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: how much on-guard cards can be revealed at 1 site?

Post by Konrad Klar »

I must admit: rules actually say about player's M/H phase and say about company's M/H phase.

Now try to respect this distinction and try to apply, what rules state about player's M/H phase.
During your opponent's movement/hazard phase, the number of hazard cards that you may play on one of your opponent's companies is that company's hazard limit.
This is about player's M/H phase, right?
Does it mean that some hazards may be played during player's M/H phase and at the same time not during particular company's M/H phase?
Does it mean that there is any Hazard Limit outside of particular company's M/H phase?
During the movement/hazard phase of your opponent's turn, you may place one card on-guard for each of your opponent's companies.
Does it mean that a hazard player may place an on-guard cards during player's M/H phase and at the same time not during particular company's M/H phase?

Or, maybe, this means that the player's M/H phase is just container for M/H phases of particular companies. That is empty if at the end of Long-event phase a current player does not have any company. And that nothing may happen during player's M/H phase and at the same time not during particular company's M/H phase.

Even in the second case (M/H of player as just container for M/H of companies) what rules say about player's M/H phase looks like mess.
During your opponent's movement/hazard phase, the number of hazard cards that you may play on one of your opponent's companies is that company's hazard limit.
This assumes that there is a hazard limit per company, whereas actually there is a hazard limit per company's M/H phase. If some company has 3 M/H phases in turn (so during player's M/H phase), in each M/H phase has 4 HL, it is possible to play against it 12 hazards (that count against HL) total , all during player's M/H phase. Much more than maximum HL at any given point for that company's any M/H phase.
In other words: the limit "the number of hazard cards that you may play on one of your opponent's companies" could be reached even in first M/H phase of this company.
During the movement/hazard phase of your opponent's turn, you may place one card on-guard for each of your opponent's companies.
Similarly: above does take into account the fact that particular company may take multiple M/H phases.

You may consistently enforce both the limit of "number of hazards per company per player's M/H phase" and the limit "one on-guard card placed per given company per player's M/H phase".
Or you may consistently acknowledge error in both cases.
Or you may do not try to be consistent.
Other options... ?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: how much on-guard cards can be revealed at 1 site?

Post by Bandobras Took »

On a case by case basis:
During your opponent's movement/hazard phase, the number of hazard cards that you may play on one of your opponent's companies is that company's hazard limit.
The operative word for me here is "during." This states that a hazard limit exists for an opponent's company during your opponent's movement/hazard phase, and tells you what a hazard limit means. The actual play of hazard cards is covered by other rules.
During the movement/hazard phase of your opponent's turn, you may place one card on-guard for each of your opponent's companies.
This serves as a limit, so far as I can tell, on how many on-guard cards total may be played during the opponent's movement/hazard phase. The specifics of how to actually play an on-guard card are again covered by other rules.
During your opponent's movement/hazard phase, the number of hazard cards that you may play on one of your opponent's companies is that company's hazard limit.

This assumes that there is a hazard limit per company, whereas actually there is a hazard limit per company's M/H phase. If some company has 3 M/H phases in turn (so during player's M/H phase), in each M/H phase has 4 HL, it is possible to play against it 12 hazards (that count against HL) total , all during player's M/H phase. Much more than maximum HL at any given point for that company's any M/H phase.
In other words: the limit "the number of hazard cards that you may play on one of your opponent's companies" could be reached even in first M/H phase of this company.
This is interesting. Where exactly does it say that the hazard limit is per *company's* movement/hazard phase?
Clarification: For the purposes of calculating hazard limits, each company's size is determined for each company at the beginning of the movement/hazard phase (e.g., it remains fixed). So, if a character is eliminated during his company's portion of the movement/hazard phase, his company's hazard limit does not change.
This clarification indicates that hazard limit is established at the beginning of *the* movement/hazard phase, and that elimination during a company's *portion* of the movement/hazard phase does not affect this. The hazard limit rule from MELE, taken as it stands, does not indicate that the hazard limit is "reset" simply because the company moves again. They company simply has another movement/hazard phase, but such is still part of the player's movement/hazard phase, so far as I can tell.
During the movement/hazard phase of your opponent's turn, you may place one card on-guard for each of your opponent's companies.
Similarly: above does take into account the fact that particular company may take multiple M/H phases.
Until I can find an ICE clarification about a company with multiple movement/hazard phases (I will go looking; I can't recall anything off the top of my head, though), this may be another cases of the rules saying one thing and everybody assuming something else.
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You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Bandobras Took
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Re: how much on-guard cards can be revealed at 1 site?

Post by Bandobras Took »

The Balrog Summary adds further support for the idea:
The hazard limit is the number of hazards that may be played on the company each turn, and is set at the end of the organization phase.
From this, it would seem that it doesn't matter how many given m/h phases a company takes -- their hazard limit is set, there's nothing to reset it, and as of the printing of those rules, unless you're taking multiple turns, that hazard limit is all you've got.

This would make movement enhancers much stronger than they currently are, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I think that certain mechanics are supposed to be treated on a "per company" basis rather than a "per company's movement/hazard phase basis."

That we've been playing it wrong for years doesn't mean that we can't start playing it correctly. :)

P.S. This is a similar situation to rules I assumed apply to FWs that actually don't.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: how much on-guard cards can be revealed at 1 site?

Post by Konrad Klar »

Bandobras Took wrote:This is interesting. Where exactly does it say that the hazard limit is per *company's* movement/hazard phase?
Dragons, Hazard Limit (Clarification) wrote:The base hazard limit is determined (i.e., set) simultaneously at the moment a
company reveals its new site or otherwise announces it is beginning its movement/
hazard phase. Any cards which modify a company’s hazard limit played prior to this
point are then immediately applied to the company’s base hazard limit in the order
chosen by the player controlling the company. With such modifications established,
any cards played after this point are interpreted in the order they are resolved. Any
effects which modify the hazard limit against a company during its site phase are
ignored. Any reduction in the hazard limit during a movement/hazard phase does not
affect cards already announced and played.
Underline mine.

So at least the setting HL at begining of company's M/H phase is not something imagined by me (to not to speak for others).

Of course it is non evident argument in question "One HL per company per player's M/H phase (i.e. effectively per turn) VS. One HL per each M/H phase of given company".
Maybe it only shifts the moment when HL is set and the procedure is not being repeated in next M/H phase of given company. Not at the end of organization phase (Balrog's school), but at the beginning of company's (first) M/H phase.

Implications of the concept of one HL per company per player's M/H phase are easy to imagine. Because it translates to one HL for all company's M/H phases in given turn.
Once the number of hazards will reach HL, the company will have "fair travels everywhere" in its subsequent M/H phases in current turn.
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Re: how much on-guard cards can be revealed at 1 site?

Post by Bandobras Took »

If such rules are applied, hazard play must become a bit more strategic, and "move again" cards become a bit stronger, but I don't think such would really break the game.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: how much on-guard cards can be revealed at 1 site?

Post by Shapeshifter »

Bandobras Took wrote:If such rules are applied, hazard play must become a bit more strategic, and "move again" cards become a bit stronger, but I don't think such would really break the game.
I think this would break the game. Decks that concentrate on multiple m/h-phases with the use of Carambor, "bridged" Radagast and Gangways over the Fire are very strong already. (Well, some might say Carambor already breaks the game but this is another issue.) With such rulings those decks would become even stronger.
Dragons, Hazard Limit (Clarification) wrote:The base hazard limit is determined (i.e., set) simultaneously at the moment a
company reveals its new site or otherwise announces it is beginning its movement/
hazard phase.
This implies for me that the base HL is reapplied every time a company reveals its new site (i.e. when taking multiple m/h-phases).
Konrad Klar wrote:Once the number of hazards will reach HL, the company will have "fair travels everywhere" in its subsequent M/H phases in current turn.
As I see it there will be no "fair travels everywhere" in a company's subsequent M/H phases in current turn. Let me support my opinion:
MELE wrote:Hazard Limit: The maximum number of hazard cards that may be played against a company. The hazard limit is equal the company's size (to a minimum of two) when it declares its movement/hazard phase is starting.
Also the Rulings Digests support the idea that the HL is set for every single m/h-phase of a company per turn:
Rulings Digest #72 wrote:In Digest #71, I screwed up:
Now, my question is, if I play deeper shadow for its second effect (i.e. hazard limit reduction) and then play a card that allows that company another mh phase (e.g. forced march, leg it double quick), is the lingering effect of deeper shadow still around? *** The effect is in play for all movement/hazard phases for that company.
*** The ruling above is incorrect. Since Deeper Shadow is played during the movement/hazard phase, it only targets the hazard limit for the current movement/hazard phase.
Ruling Digest #112 wrote:(4) The question has arisen how one is supposed to deal with sites that have effects in their card text, e.g. hero Mt Doom and minion Isles of the Dead that Live. This led us to a total formalization of the beginning of the movement-hazard phase.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The beginning of a company's movement-hazard phase unfolds thus:
(A) Revealing the site: Simultaneously determine the company's site path and the base hazard limit. This
happens immediately, and cannot be responded to.
* Opponent halving the hazard limit in order to sideboard affects the base hazard limit.
* There are special rules concerning Under-deeps movement. (CRF: Rulings by Term: Under-deeps)

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Bandobras Took
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Re: how much on-guard cards can be revealed at 1 site?

Post by Bandobras Took »

First of all, there is a typo in the online rules documents. The quote from the actual print rulebook of MELE is
Clarification: For the purposes of calculating hazard limits, each company’s size is determined for each company at the beginning of its movement/hazard phase (e.g., it remains fixed).
My apologies.

However, this does not alter the fact that the Balrog rules clearly state that the hazard limit is set at the end of the organization phase. Such a statement must override previous rules to the contrary.

However the issue on hazard limits turns out, though, the fundamental point remains that rules clearly distinguish between the player's movement/hazard phase and a company's movement/hazard phase. You are limited to a number of on-gaurds total during your opponent's movement/hazard phase, and this number is equal to the number of your opponent's companies.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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