MEBA Sauron questions...

[rezwits]

I had to do this beause I just can't find any answers by googling, or going over and over this.

Sauron:

Manifestation of The Lidless Eye. Playable if your opponent is a Wizard and you have not revealed a Ringwraith. You are Sauron, not a Ringwraith. You may not reveal a Ringwraith or play Ringwraith followers. +10 to your general influence. Discards and prevents the subsequent play of Bade to Rule. During your organization phase, you may bring a resource or character from your sideboard into your play deck and shuffle and there is no limit to the number of characters you may bring into play. Cannot be duplicated.

The only errata/crf I have found is this:
Sauron
• Does not allow you to discard more than one cha- racter per turn, nor does it allow you to both play and discard characters in a turn [CoE 51].

--==--

Here are my thoughts:

To me there are only 4 LIMITS, I know of, when it comes to "bringing characters into play":

Limit #1 = General Influence Limit (which this boosts you to 30)
Limit #2 = Characters per turn, which is only 1 (unless specials)
Limit #3 = Company Size, unless at a haven.
Limit #4 = 10 character pool added to your main deck,
+ 30 characters from your sb added to main deck (but geesh, so 40)

So, my main question is:

What's the difference between playing Sauron and Bade to Rule?
I mean the only thing is Sauron gives you +5 extra G.I., and yeah you get to play ("if you are Sauron" cards, Sauron Spells).

Because someone might argue, You STILL have the GI Limit? wrong NO LIMIT
Because someone might argue, You STILL have the company size limit? wrong NO LIMIT
But if someone said I want to drop 2-3 orcs in one turn, someone would say, Yeah that's cool because there is no limit.

So that would be all you get from Sauron vs Bade, +5 GI, Sauron "Spells", and 2-3 chars at once.

That's not that big of a deal, except the Sauron "Spells."

To me I think all the Limits above #1, #2, & #3, except #4 (because well, that's just a REAL limit) shouldn't take effect?

If you play the MEBA Sauron that's that drop it all down, 3 Troll Lieutenants the Mouth etc and some DM agents if you can, whatever go hog wild.

So can someone please tell me what the LIMIT is when playing MEBA Sauron?

Thanks...

[Konrad Klar]

Limit #2 = Characters per turn, which is only 1 (unless specials)

There is no such limit.
By default in organization phase a player has the option: either discard one character, or bring into play one character.
That is mistaken with "one character per turn" limit *.

*) Somebody cares about the fact that a characters may be discarded according to various resource/hazard effects in or outside organization phase, and whether the option was taken or not?

[Bandobras Took]

There is no such limit.

What then means We Have Come to Kill?

A character may be brought into play under general or direct influence at any Shadow-hold, Ruins & Lairs, or Border-hold. This does not count against the one character per turn limit.

[rezwits]

Right, you can either bring one character into play, or discard one character.

I have never heard that you can bring 2 characters into play, unless using a special ability or card, such as "Chance Meeting or We Have Come to Kill" or other "special" ability/card, (i.e. like a Ringwraith Follower exception, etc)

So, basically there is a limit per se, that you can only bring 1 character into play per organization phase.

Are you telling me that I can bring 2, or even 3, during every organization phase?

? ? ?

[rezwits]

--==--
Thanks for the quote Bandobras Took!

[Konrad Klar]

What then means We Have Come to Kill?

A character may be brought into play under general or direct influence at any Shadow-hold, Ruins & Lairs, or Border-hold. This does not count against the one character per turn limit.

True. If some limit does not exists, then nothing counts against the limit.

Someone may infer an existence of such limit just because something has been mentioned as not counting against the limit.
Similarly:

Magic. Sorcery. Playable on a sorcery-using character facing an automatic-attack. The number of strikes of all automatic-attack at the site this turn are reduced to one. Unless he is a Ringwraith, character makes a corruption check modified by -4. ...for here as the Mountain drew near the air was ever mirky...-LotRVI

someone may infer that if not "Unless he is a Ringwraith" a Ringwraith should make "a corruption check modified by -4".

Redundancy or not, here and/or there.

[Konrad Klar]

Only playable during the organization phase on a company. There is no limit to the size of this company. Dwarves with a mind of 2 or less in this company do not require influence to be controlled; and there is no limit to how many Dwarves may be brought into play on a given turn with the company. Discard this card if the company has more than one non-Wizard character with a mind greater than 5 or more than two non-Dwarf characters or no Dwarf with a mind greater than 5. Cannot be duplicate don a given company.

Underline mine.

Someone may even infer an existence of limit of Dwarves that may be brought into play on a given turn per company.

[rezwits]

Here is my take tho, on why the card, is in essence "Limitless," and should be I don't see why any resriction:

For ONE, this card is in the Balrog Expansion. If you look at the Balrog's discard pile character recursion abilities, it's been argued many times from my reading on this forum, while in hiding , that he has a disgustingly powerfull ability. You only get one Sauron per deck purchased. So if he was in play he's fairly on the same power level as the Balrog's ability.

For TWO, You are taking a big risk, which can be mitagated by putting a few Nazgûl in your deck, but if you decide to go ALL in with 3 Sauron, (or 4 under DC-rules) with "Sauron Spells" also in the deck, in General Format, where your Opponent could be a Ringwraith, in which case you can't even play the Sauron card, THIS is BRUTAL. Another way tho to, even further mitage the situation would, be to just include your 3 Sauron's in the sb, and 6 "Sauron Specific" cards. And if you are playing against a Wizard, chuck them in?! That's just WEAK!

So in summary if you go ALL-IN and throw 4 Saurons in an 80 card deck [66 (33/33) + 4 + 10] and put Sauron Spells in, if you run into a Nazgûl Opp, you're gonna HURT. So you just wouldn't even play this, BUT if you did want to work with it some how. My gosh, please let the card have some power, if you choose to come out of hiding and reveal Sauron...

Just a thought!

[Bandobras Took]

What then means We Have Come to Kill?

A character may be brought into play under general or direct influence at any Shadow-hold, Ruins & Lairs, or Border-hold. This does not count against the one character per turn limit.

True. If some limit does not exists, then nothing counts against the limit.

If there is no such thing, why would they mention its existence on the card? The writer of the card clearly believed there to be such a limit.

Someone may even infer an existence of limit of Dwarves that may be brought into play on a given turn per company.

They would be correct; as the limit for Dwarves is the same as the limit for all other races; Unexpected Party makes this limit no longer apply to Dwarves.

By default in organization phase a player has the option: either discard one character, or bring into play one character.
That is mistaken with "one character per turn" limit *.

You have this in reverse: by default, a player who wishes to bring a character into play must do so during the organization phase, as this is specified under the rules for character play.

An influence attempt may allow a player to play a character, but that is subordinate to the influence attempt. To play a character on one's own initiative, it must be during the organization phase and no more than one can be played.

This is the one character per turn limit.

The various magic cards are indeed redundant, but everything they reference exists in the game/rules (Ringwraiths, corruption checks). Can you provide an example of a card in the game that references a nonexistent rule (other than the disputed WHCtK)?

[Konrad Klar]

If there is no such thing, why would they mention its existence on the card? The writer of the card clearly believed there to be such a limit.

In organization phase a player may bring/discard one character; he does not need anything else that allow for that. There is one organization phase per turn. Hence there is a limit of one such option that may be taken by turn.
But that that a player may take such action only once per turn (in organization phase) "for free" does not mean that he is generally limited to one bring/discard character action per turn, nor that he is limited to do it only in organization phase.

Probably before We Have Come to Kill there was a lot confusions around A Chance Meeting, unnecessary confusions. If to take into account:

Except for resource long-events, you may play resource cards anytime during your own turn unless specifically prohibited by the rules or the cards themselves.

then a strait conclusion is that A Chance Meeting (and We Have Come to Kill) are not a cards that merely change a site where character may be brought in play. If someone ignore the rule, he may think that the card does not allow to play a character, that it only changes "where", and is not touching "when" and "how many".

"This does not count against the one character per turn limit." tries to address the confusions.
In may opinion it says that a character to be played is not the one character that may be played "for free" in organization phase (once per turn).
As each clarification that is redundant with general rules it introduces additional confusions: "why? for what?", how different is WHCtK (that includes such text) from ACM (that does not include it)?

[rezwits]

ah semantics guys...

Where is the LIKE button on this forum?

[rezwits]

Can I please get my original question answered? Without WHCTK derailment?

If I have Sauron on the table in play, I can drop whatever characters into play.

And this most precious card's MAIN ability is not just you can bring into play 3 Orc Sniffler + 3 Orc Brawlers, but you I would have to return them to my hand at the end of the Organization phase, because it only says BRING them into play not KEEP them into play - LAMENESS!

I would like to use my cards, for now, I am just going with ALL out THIS IS A POWER CARD, well because you know it is Sauron after all logic...and he can build a massive army, like he did, in the books...

later, let me know when you get a chance to rule, without WHCTK BS...

[Bandobras Took]

As for your original question:

No. You only get what is stated on the card. All other rules remain in force.

+5 General Influence is an extra 2 MPs. More, depending on what actions the character takes in the game.

There is no limit to the number of characters you may bring into play on a turn. That's huge, given that the limit during the organization phase is otherwise 1.

The characters stay in play. Once you bring a card into play, it stays in play unless something (rule or effect/action) causes it to be discarded.

[rezwits]

As for your original question:
+5 General Influence is an extra 2 MPs. More, depending on what actions the character takes in the game.

There is no limit to the number of characters you may bring into play on a turn. That's huge, given that the limit during the organization phase is otherwise 1.

The characters stay in play. Once you bring a card into play, it stays in play unless something (rule or effect/action) causes it to be discarded.

k well RW/Sauron players get an addition +5 G.I. not usable for Characters, so we are at 25 then Sauron gives you +10, which puts you at 30(35). I don't know what "an extra 2 MPs" means, unless that counts at the end of the game? or something? Missed that rule.

As for "unless something (rule or effect/action)", after your organization phase, if say I have a Troll Lieutenant (9 mind) + the Mouth in play, and Golodhros which put's me at 27 G.I. claimed, if I dropped another a Troll Lieutenant (9 mind), the rule would be:

In the Organization Phase, you may play a character if you do not have enough influence to control them. However, if there are any characters you do not have the influence to control at the end of your Organization Phase, the character you brought into play this turn must be returned to your hand [CRF].

That rule is from the URD. So, would the 2nd Troll Lieutenant be returned? or not? because of THAT RULE.

Or are the only abilities of MEBA Sauron,

+10 G.I.
You get to Sideboard like a Nazgûl or Wizard without actually "tapping an avatar"
And you get to put into play like 2-3 characters in 1 turn. But once your G.I. is gone, this is over.

So if my GENERAL INFLUENCE is GONE.

Basically, all I get to do is Sideboard?
and have an extra Company?
That's all this card does is that what you are saying?

I mean yeah I have an extra Troll Lieutenant in play with dudes in his company under his influence...

but, I think some thought about what this card does needs to be considered...

I see no reason you shouldn't be able to bring unlimited characters into play...
IDK people will cry? right? say it's too powerful?

[Bandobras Took]

If you exceed your GI, the characters you play return to your hand.

Each +5 GI is essentially 2 extra character MPs; I was forgetting that Sauron gives +10, not +5.

That's all this card does is that what you are saying?

I mean yeah I have an extra Troll Lieutenant in play with dudes in his company under his influence...

IDK people will cry? right?

Anybody who thinks having an extra company headed by a Troll Lieutenant isn't enough power for a card is definitely crying.