Dwar + modifying prowess/body of Allies

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Dwar the Ringwraith: may tap to give +1 prowess and +1 body to all characters in any one of your companies until the end of the turn.

CRF writes: Allies count as characters for the purposes of combat, including performing actions in combat that characters do (getting assigned strikes, tapping for +1 to prowess) and for the play of cards that directly affect the attack.

So, does Dwar tapping give +1/+1 to allies? does it give it only at the moment of facing/resolving an attack?
Or, does it depend on when Dwar taps (i.e. during the attack), as that's when allies are characters?

on another note, does Dwar tapping give +1/+1 to characters that come into play after the tapping earlier that turn?

I'll Report You: +1 prowess to all characters in his company.
Fellowship: +1 to prowess [-] to all characters and allies in the company.

Does Smart and Secret work for allies (at the moment of combat)? Fellowship mentions allies, but SaS does not, was that intentional?

thanks
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Bandobras Took
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MELE Rules wrote:An ally does not count as a character for any purposes other than combat and the use of certain skills.
MELE Rules, Combat wrote:Strike Modifications
There are a number of standard modifications to the prowess of each target character facing a strike:
· An unwounded, tapped character must modify his prowess by -1.
· A wounded character must modify his prowess by -2.
· Normally a character that is the target of a strike is tapped after the strike is resolved. However, a character may choose to take a -3 modification to his prowess to avoid being tapped. If so, the character is not tapped after the strike is resolved (he may still be wounded).
· If an attack has more strikes than the company has characters, the attacker may allocate the excess strikes as -1 modifiers to the prowesses of whichever target(s) he chooses. See the Strike Sequence on page 33.
· The target's prowess may also be modified due to the play of certain resource and hazard cards. Only one resource card requiring skill may be played against a given strike.
One of the purposes of combat is presumably determining the prowess of the character facing a strike. Relevant resource/character effects would apply to allies when facing strikes as a result of combat. However, any such thing which mentions only characters would not apply if there is a need to determine prowess in another situation. I'm not certain if such a situation could arise; most of the hazards I can think of also specify characters anyway.
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Konrad Klar
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Tapping the Dwar the Ringwraith does not give bonuses for purpose of combat. The bonuses are for any purpose. Therefore they do not apply to allies, even if they are in combat situation.

Fellowship gives bonuses to prowess both to the characters and allies. Should allies in company receive both of them during combat? One for being allies, other for being characters for purpose of combat?
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Bandobras Took
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Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:43 am Tapping the Dwar the Ringwraith does not give bonuses for purpose of combat. The bonuses are for any purpose. Therefore they do not apply to allies, even if they are in combat situation.
As the rule I quoted states, one of the parts of combat is applying effects which modify the prowess of the target character facing a strike. Since an ally facing a strike is a target character, that rule applies to them.
Fellowship gives bonuses to prowess both to the characters and allies. Should allies in company receive both of them during combat? One for being allies, other for being characters for purpose of combat?
It's only +1, but will also apply in instances other than combat.
+1 to prowess and +1 to corruption checks for all characters and allies in the company.
Whether the card is considered a character or an ally (or both), they receive the +1 bonus from Fellowship. Likewise, Goblin-Faces does not receive double benefit from Scimitars of Steel simply because it is both an Orc attack and a Man attack.
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Konrad Klar
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Bandobras Took wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:11 pm Whether the card is considered a character or an ally (or both), they receive the +1 bonus from Fellowship. Likewise, Goblin-Faces does not receive double benefit from Scimitars of Steel simply because it is both an Orc attack and a Man attack.
However non-ranger Dúnadan receives cumulative -2 to prowess from Night if Doors of Night is in play.
Night wrote:Environment. The prowess of each non-ranger Dúnadan is modified by -1. Additionally, if Doors of Night is in play, the prowesses of all attacks are modified by +1 and the prowess of each Man and Dúnadan is modified by -1. Cannot be duplicated.
Goblin-Faces is the case when two passive conditions (Orc attack, Men attack) existing at the same time activates one action. That in turn is similar to situation when company is moving trough multiple regions, traveling through each is activating attack from Dragon Ahunt.

Continuous effects, existing as long as card that creates it is in play, and results of actions created by passive conditions are different things.

An ally is considered a character for purposes of combat and use of certain skills.
It is not the same that ally during combat counts as a character for all purposes, and is not the same that ally with certain skills counts as a character for all purposes. Potion of Prowess whether used during combat, or not, does not give +1 prowess to allies. It is not the bonus for purposes of combat.
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Bandobras Took
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You're focusing on the wrong thing. "+1 to prowess" is not a purpose of combat.

Adding modifiers from played resources is. It's part of the description of the strike sequence under the rules for combat. In order to do combat, you have to add in all modifiers. An ally counts as a character for the strike sequence because the strike sequence is part of combat.

If Fellowship said "All characters receive +1 prowess. Additionally, all allies receive +1 prowess." then an ally would receive +2 prowess when facing a strike as a result of combat. However, Fellowship does not say that. If an entity meets either requirement, they receive the benefit of the card.
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Konrad Klar
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Bandobras Took wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:43 pm An ally counts as a character for the strike sequence because the strike sequence is part of combat.
Right, so the ally facing an attack will receive bonuses from Kindling of The Spirit, or Drughu.
If you treat "counts as character for purposes of combat" as "during combat counts as a character for all purposes" then Clear Skies would at the time of combat boost prowess of allies and otherwise would not affect them.
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Bandobras Took
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You're still misunderstanding. Clear Skies functions as you have stated, but not because an ally counts as a character for all purposes during combat.

Applying prowess modifications is part of the combat process, just like assigning strikes or keying an attack. It is a purpose of combat. An ally can use Escape because cancelling an attack is also a purpose of combat.
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Konrad Klar
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CRF, Rulings by Term, Ally wrote:Allies count as characters for the purposes of combat, including performing actions in
combat that characters do (getting assigned strikes, tapping for +1 to prowess) and for
the play of cards that directly affect the attack.
If receiving a general purpose bonuses for characters that can affect combat counts as "performing actions in combat that characters do",
or "play of cards that directly affect the attack." then I give up.
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Konrad Klar
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P.S.
Bandobras Took wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:33 pm An ally can use Escape because cancelling an attack is also a purpose of combat.
I do not think that an ally, or a character uses the Escape.
Escape wrote:Cancels an attack against a company. One unwounded character of your choice in the company is wounded (no body check is required). 'Over the bridge!' cried Gandalf, recalling his strength. 'Fly! This is a foe beyond any of you. I must hold the narrow way. Fly!'-LotRII
CRF, Errata (Cards), Escape wrote:Cannot be played on a wounded character.
What CRF says looks for me as contradicting with text of the card.
I read the card in such way:
First action is canceling the attack.
Second action is wounding a character chosen by player. (Please note that if an action is a choice, it is not known at declaration what will be chosen, therefore chosen entity is not a target). Second action is so unrelated to combat as unrelated to combat is cc from Kindling of The Spirit.
An ally does not count as character for purpose of the action.

"Cannot be played if there is no a unwounded character in company"
would make a more sense as CRF entry for Escape.

Minion counterpart of Escape - the Diversion is other thing. There is a character enacting the action and action is cancel an attack. So non-hero ally may be target of the card.
Diversion wrote:Playable on an unwounded character facing an attack. The attack is canceled and the character is wounded (no body check is required). When the battle was over, we found that Gollum was gone...-LotRII
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Bandobras Took
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Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:00 am
CRF, Rulings by Term, Ally wrote:Allies count as characters for the purposes of combat, including performing actions in
combat that characters do (getting assigned strikes, tapping for +1 to prowess) and for
the play of cards that directly affect the attack.
If receiving a general purpose bonuses for characters that can affect combat counts as "performing actions in combat that characters do",
or "play of cards that directly affect the attack." then I give up.
"Purposes of combat" includes "performing actions" and "play of cards that directly affect the attack." But that doesn't mean those are the only things "purposes of combat" includes.

P.S. I was reading wounding the character as an active condition of the attack cancellation, but it's true the wording leaves room for interpretation. :)
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Thorsten the Traveller
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If I get the gist of this correctly:
Bandobras says both Dwar tapping and Smart and Secret affect allies?
Konrad says both do not affect allies.
So, what's the verdict? Ask NetRep?

Personally, I understand that prowess/body modification (outside strike sequence) do not serve the purpose of combat per se. But, the ICE clause that allies are characters only for the purpose of combat, I think is meant to distinguish it from other purposes, like tapping to play a resource that taps the site, or support a corruption check. Hence, modifying prowess/body should be valid for allies as if they were characters, even if it's not for combat strictly speaking. At least, that's the spirit of the rule, imo.
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Bandobras Took
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Thorsten the Traveller wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:53 pmPersonally, I understand that prowess/body modification (outside strike sequence) do not serve the purpose of combat per se.
I consider anything listed/explained under "7 - Combat" in the rulebook as a purpose of combat, since that entire section is about combat.
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rezwits
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They get the bonus (clearly)? I mean it's kinda...

You can't use MEAS Well Preserved, but a +1 prowess bonus is very clearly, a combat strike modification.

I was gonna say, you needed to tap it "during" the combat sequence, but it's a "constant" temp/perm effect, like a Clear Skies.

Now if netReps have already rules clear skies doesn't effect Allies, then I suppose go by that.

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Clear Skies and Allies are:

http://www.fallen-gandalf.net/index.html


Clarification 16

I agree the ally is affected. What confused me was including the +1 to support. Why add that unless it shows a limit?
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