Fallen Wizard not in play

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kober
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Fallen Wizard not in play

Post by kober » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:21 am

When a FW is (declared but) not in play, are his special abilities "triggered" ? For example, Gandalf's "Your characters and hero allies are each worth full MPs". Ditto for General Influence (e.g. 18 for Gandalf)?

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Fallen Wizard not in play

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:53 am

Special abilities printed on a character card are not active if the card is not in play*.
CRF, Rulings by Term, Fallen-wizard wrote:The white hand symbol on the Fallen-wizard card is that Fallen-wizard's general
influence once he is revealed. Prior to that, his general influence is 20.
*) Unless a text of a card states otherwise. E.g. some cards state how much they are worth if they are eliminated, or what happens if they are stored (eliminated and stored cards are in play only for purposes of uniqueness)
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kober
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Re: Fallen Wizard not in play

Post by kober » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:57 am

How about Radagast-specific Shapeshifter cards? Can they be played when Radagast is not in play?

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Fallen Wizard not in play

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:45 am

Yes. They can be played when Radagast is not in play.
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kober
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Re: Fallen Wizard not in play

Post by kober » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:41 am

What's the GI when a shapeshifter card is in play but Radagast is not: the value on the card or 20?

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Re: Fallen Wizard not in play

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:31 pm

20.
Texts of a shapeshifter cards say "In addition to adopting the given attributes, Radagast's skills become...".
This indicates that the value of GI on the cards is not in effect likewise skills, DI, prowess and body that replaces Radagast's original are not in effect until the card is on Radagast.
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kober
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Re: Fallen Wizard not in play

Post by kober » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:02 pm

Thank you, Konrad. One more question: if a shapeshifter card is in play, and Radagast is being played, must I place the shapeshifter card on him (which would trigger all the previously mentioned effects), or is that optional? The situation when Radagast is already in play and a shapeshifter card is being played is clear - the card is placed on Radagast...

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Re: Fallen Wizard not in play

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:19 pm

The placing on Radagast looks like a mandatory action, activated by passive condition which is a presence of Radagast in play.

Like many stage resource permanent-events, the shapeshifter cards are not played on Wizard, they are played with no target, then placed on given Wizards if he is in play.
This allow to play them early.
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the Jabberwock
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Re: Fallen Wizard not in play

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:04 pm

Here is my question:

Scenario - I declare Fallen Radagast as my avatar. I choose the following 3 cards as my starting stage cards:
- Master of Shapes
- Shifter of Hues
- Winged Change-Master
(all 3 of these are Shapeshifter cards which state: "Return this card to your hand: when you play another Shapeshifter card or, if you choose, during your organization phase." (bold mine)

Game play begins. On a subsequent turn I reveal Fallen Radagast. What happens?

All 3 cards direct me (non-optional) to place them on Radagast when he is in play.

So all 3 cards are now placed on Radagast. I have not, however, played another Shapeshifter card.

So the bouncing affect does not take place, correct?

Do all 3 cards remain on Radagast and I now pick which attributes I want to use? Or what?

If there is some rule or logic I am not aware of which would indeed bounce 2 of the 3 Shapeshifter cards back to my hand in this scenario, would I get to determine which one is not bounced since I declare the order in which they are placed on Radagast to begin with?

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Re: Fallen Wizard not in play

Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:47 pm

I can't find a hole in the logic; this may need errata.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Fallen Wizard not in play

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:41 am

I think that a cards during draft are revealed and then (if they are not discarded due to duplication of unique cards) they are played.
After all their effects are in play, so they are in play. Would be they considered as being in play but never played?

According to such interpretation any previous Shapeshifter card already revealed (and played) during draft should be returned to hand when next is played.

I do not know whether a hand exists at this point.
If not then the Shapeshifter cards will stay in play.
If a hand exists then I do not know whether player draws up to 8 cards or rather 8 cards. In second case he would start with 8 + Shapeshifter cards in hand.
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the Jabberwock
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Re: Fallen Wizard not in play

Post by the Jabberwock » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:12 pm

@ Konrad -

You do not have a hand to return the Shapeshifter cards to during the character draft when they are revealed. So this is impossible. Once the character draft has ended, you may shuffle any unused or bounced characters and stage cards into your play deck. It is only at that point that you draw your starting hand.

Furthermore, I don't think I would consider starting characters and stage cards as "played" from a technical perspective. I would say they are revealed and then simply placed on the playing surface. You don't have a hand yet after all to play them from.

A revealed on-guard card is considered "being in play but never played." Right? Or do you think you that you "play" an on-guard card from its upside down "placed" position when you reveal it?

I would say a starting company, etc. are certainly "in play" but they just start the game in such a state, they aren't actually ever "played."

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Re: Fallen Wizard not in play

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:51 pm

the Jabberwock wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:12 pm
Furthermore, I don't think I would consider starting characters and stage cards as "played" from a technical perspective. I would say they are revealed and then simply placed on the playing surface. You don't have a hand yet after all to play them from.
I think that at some point a cards revealed during draft must be considered as merely revealed to avoid situation where two (or more) unique, or that cannot be duplicated on the same target, cards are in play.
I think that after this point the cards like Thrall of the Voice, or Hidden Haven (revealed as though they were a character during draft) must be in play to have effect on game. Even during draft.
the Jabberwock wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:12 pm
A revealed on-guard card is considered "being in play but never played." Right? Or do you think you that you "play" an on-guard card from its upside down "placed" position when you reveal it?
Not right. Revealed on-guard card is considered as declared and resolved immediately prior a chain of effects in which it was revealed.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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