Fallen Wizard not in play

[kober]

When a FW is (declared but) not in play, are his special abilities "triggered" ? For example, Gandalf's "Your characters and hero allies are each worth full MPs". Ditto for General Influence (e.g. 18 for Gandalf)?

[Konrad Klar]

Special abilities printed on a character card are not active if the card is not in play*.

The white hand symbol on the Fallen-wizard card is that Fallen-wizard's general
influence once he is revealed. Prior to that, his general influence is 20.

*) Unless a text of a card states otherwise. E.g. some cards state how much they are worth if they are eliminated, or what happens if they are stored (eliminated and stored cards are in play only for purposes of uniqueness)

[kober]

How about Radagast-specific Shapeshifter cards? Can they be played when Radagast is not in play?

[Konrad Klar]

Yes. They can be played when Radagast is not in play.

[kober]

What's the GI when a shapeshifter card is in play but Radagast is not: the value on the card or 20?

[Konrad Klar]

20.
Texts of a shapeshifter cards say "In addition to adopting the given attributes, Radagast's skills become...".
This indicates that the value of GI on the cards is not in effect likewise skills, DI, prowess and body that replaces Radagast's original are not in effect until the card is on Radagast.

[kober]

Thank you, Konrad. One more question: if a shapeshifter card is in play, and Radagast is being played, must I place the shapeshifter card on him (which would trigger all the previously mentioned effects), or is that optional? The situation when Radagast is already in play and a shapeshifter card is being played is clear - the card is placed on Radagast...

[Konrad Klar]

The placing on Radagast looks like a mandatory action, activated by passive condition which is a presence of Radagast in play.

Like many stage resource permanent-events, the shapeshifter cards are not played on Wizard, they are played with no target, then placed on given Wizards if he is in play.
This allow to play them early.

[the JabberwocK]

Here is my question:

Scenario - I declare Fallen Radagast as my avatar. I choose the following 3 cards as my starting stage cards:
- Master of Shapes
- Shifter of Hues
- Winged Change-Master
(all 3 of these are Shapeshifter cards which state: "Return this card to your hand: when you play another Shapeshifter card or, if you choose, during your organization phase." (bold mine)

Game play begins. On a subsequent turn I reveal Fallen Radagast. What happens?

All 3 cards direct me (non-optional) to place them on Radagast when he is in play.

So all 3 cards are now placed on Radagast. I have not, however, played another Shapeshifter card.

So the bouncing affect does not take place, correct?

Do all 3 cards remain on Radagast and I now pick which attributes I want to use? Or what?

If there is some rule or logic I am not aware of which would indeed bounce 2 of the 3 Shapeshifter cards back to my hand in this scenario, would I get to determine which one is not bounced since I declare the order in which they are placed on Radagast to begin with?

[Bandobras Took]

I can't find a hole in the logic; this may need errata.

[Konrad Klar]

I think that a cards during draft are revealed and then (if they are not discarded due to duplication of unique cards) they are played.
After all their effects are in play, so they are in play. Would be they considered as being in play but never played?

According to such interpretation any previous Shapeshifter card already revealed (and played) during draft should be returned to hand when next is played.

I do not know whether a hand exists at this point.
If not then the Shapeshifter cards will stay in play.
If a hand exists then I do not know whether player draws up to 8 cards or rather 8 cards. In second case he would start with 8 + Shapeshifter cards in hand.

[the JabberwocK]

@ Konrad -

You do not have a hand to return the Shapeshifter cards to during the character draft when they are revealed. So this is impossible. Once the character draft has ended, you may shuffle any unused or bounced characters and stage cards into your play deck. It is only at that point that you draw your starting hand.

Furthermore, I don't think I would consider starting characters and stage cards as "played" from a technical perspective. I would say they are revealed and then simply placed on the playing surface. You don't have a hand yet after all to play them from.

A revealed on-guard card is considered "being in play but never played." Right? Or do you think you that you "play" an on-guard card from its upside down "placed" position when you reveal it?

I would say a starting company, etc. are certainly "in play" but they just start the game in such a state, they aren't actually ever "played."

[Konrad Klar]

Furthermore, I don't think I would consider starting characters and stage cards as "played" from a technical perspective. I would say they are revealed and then simply placed on the playing surface. You don't have a hand yet after all to play them from.

I think that at some point a cards revealed during draft must be considered as merely revealed to avoid situation where two (or more) unique, or that cannot be duplicated on the same target, cards are in play.
I think that after this point the cards like Thrall of the Voice, or Hidden Haven (revealed as though they were a character during draft) must be in play to have effect on game. Even during draft.

A revealed on-guard card is considered "being in play but never played." Right? Or do you think you that you "play" an on-guard card from its upside down "placed" position when you reveal it?

Not right. Revealed on-guard card is considered as declared and resolved immediately prior a chain of effects in which it was revealed.