The Balrog's Company

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the Jabberwock
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The Balrog's Company

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:25 am

MELE Rulebook states:
Unless at a Darkhaven, your Ringwraith's company may only contain your Ringwraith and Ringwraith followers.
MEBA Rulebook states:
A Balrog player acts as a Ringwraith player. Any card and rules text applying to a Ringwraith also applies
to The Balrog (e.g., if a card refers to a Ringwraith, it now applies to “a Ringwraith or The Balrog”).
So does this mean that The Balrog always travels alone? I know there are a couple Balrog Specific cards which allow the Balrog to have followers, but are these situations the ONLY time the Balrog travels with others in his company? (ie. only with followers that he can control with Direct Influence?)

Or is there something that permits other Orcs and Trolls to be in the Balrog's company without being a follower?

Sorry, but I have not yet played a Balrog deck, so perhaps I'm missing something obvious.

Thanks!

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rezwits
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Re: The Balrog's Company

Post by rezwits » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:00 am

That Balrog as a Ringwraith rule is not as over encompassing as you may come to think. It is for use on some cards, such as Ancient Secrets for instance.

If we considered every instance of where Ringwraith = Balrog, then you could have the Balrog as a Follower for your RW!!

I honestly don't know why they even have the rule. But it's mostly entirely for things like:

Above the Abyss

Playable on a tapped non-Ringwraith character if your opponent is a Wizard and Ringwraith is in play. Untap target character. "...in the dark they could not see a descent, until they came on it and put their feet out into emptiness."-LotRII

replace

Playable on a tapped non-Balrog character if your opponent is a Wizard and Balrog is in play. Untap target character. "...in the dark they could not see a descent, until they came on it and put their feet out into emptiness."-LotRII

it's not like go back and recursively replace all instances of Ringwraith with Balrog :P hehe

It's stupid tho imo, just because of like 20 cards max, but eh, whatever, most of the other RW cards, are "specific" or spells so...
Not to mention they forbid most RW cards from the Balrog player...
Like a spell card:

Unless he is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check modified by -4. Cannot be duplicated on a given character
or
Unless he is the Balrog, he makes a corruption check modified by -4. Cannot be duplicated on a given character

But it's kinda hard to get the Balrog to be able to cast spells!!
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Konrad Klar
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Re: The Balrog's Company

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:27 am

rezwits wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:00 am
If we considered every instance of where Ringwraith = Balrog, then you could have the Balrog as a Follower for your RW!!
It is not explicitly forbidden. However inclusion of The Balrog card in deck, or sideboard makes a player a Balrog player, so this is an obstacle.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: The Balrog's Company

Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:04 pm

MEBA Rules wrote:However, instead of using the special rules listed on page 19 of this booklet (or on page 59 of the MELE rules), a Balrog player uses the following special rules:
Since the company composition rule is in both those places, it is likely intended to be ignored for the Balrog. It pops up in other places in the MELE rulebook (notably p. 21 and p. 57) so there is room for doubt.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: The Balrog's Company

Post by the Jabberwock » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:49 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:27 am
rezwits wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:00 am
If we considered every instance of where Ringwraith = Balrog, then you could have the Balrog as a Follower for your RW!!
It is not explicitly forbidden. However inclusion of The Balrog card in deck, or sideboard makes a player a Balrog player, so this is an obstacle.
Ok, so you could include Ringwraiths in the sideboard of your Balrog deck. Your Balrog avatar could then have Ringwraith followers with Great Shadow in play?

Oh, but Ringwraiths must use Starter movement, and the Balrog may not use Starter movement, so not sure how this would work. :?

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Re: The Balrog's Company

Post by rezwits » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:14 am

the Jabberwock wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:49 am
Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:27 am
rezwits wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:00 am
If we considered every instance of where Ringwraith = Balrog, then you could have the Balrog as a Follower for your RW!!
It is not explicitly forbidden. However inclusion of The Balrog card in deck, or sideboard makes a player a Balrog player, so this is an obstacle.
Oh, but Ringwraiths must use Starter movement, and the Balrog may not use Starter movement, so not sure how this would work. :?
Good Point! But if he wanted to have a talk with them he could. For instance if you wanted to bring in Khamul, Adunaphel, and Uvatha. They could sit at Moria with him :D. Then your opponent couldn't do Nazgûl Abroad, Mouth tricks until the end of time...

Just sayin...

n.b. Out he sprang would allow him to use Regional Movement, but only if Great Shadow is not in play... ;)
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: The Balrog's Company

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:34 am

the Jabberwock wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:49 am
Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:27 am
rezwits wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:00 am
If we considered every instance of where Ringwraith = Balrog, then you could have the Balrog as a Follower for your RW!!
It is not explicitly forbidden. However inclusion of The Balrog card in deck, or sideboard makes a player a Balrog player, so this is an obstacle.
Ok, so you could include Ringwraiths in the sideboard of your Balrog deck. Your Balrog avatar could then have Ringwraith followers with Great Shadow in play?

Oh, but Ringwraiths must use Starter movement, and the Balrog may not use Starter movement, so not sure how this would work. :?
Balrog player may only include Orc, or Troll minion characters in deck and/or sideboard.
The Balrog, Balrog Player wrote:A Balrog player acts as a Ringwraith player. Any card and rules text applying to a
Ringwraith also applies to The Balrog (e.g., if a card refers to a Ringwraith, it now
applies to “a Ringwraith or The Balrog”).
However, instead of using the special rules listed on page 59 of the MELE rules (or
wherever else these rules may appear), a Balrog player uses the following special
rules:
• Any ring in The Balrog’s company at the beginning of the end-of-turn phase is
automatically tested. Any ring test in The Balrog’s company has a modification
of -2.
• The Balrog may carry items (including rings) but may not use them (i.e., an item
has no effect on The Balrog’s company or on his attributes and abilities).
• The Balrog never makes corruption checks and corruption cards may not be
played on The Balrog.
• Normally, The Balrog may not use starter and region movement (as stated on his
card). However, the play of certain resources can expand his movement capabilities.

• The Balrog’s company is always overt.
Underline mine.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: The Balrog's Company

Post by Bandobras Took » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:14 pm

You might have meant this:
Your Starting Company, Play Deck, and Sideboard

Your starting company and play deck (and your sideboard) may be constructed like any other Ringwraith's-with the following exceptions:

"Balrog specific" cards may be included. Such cards may only be included in a Balrog player's deck. "Balrog specific" cards do not require that The Balrog be in play, only that you are a Balrog player.
Only Orc and Troll minion characters can be included.
That does lead to an interesting paradox, since the Balrog himself is neither Orc nor Troll. :)
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: The Balrog's Company

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:56 pm

Right! :!:
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Re: The Balrog's Company

Post by rezwits » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:11 pm

Haha Good Point...

I totally read that from the Balrog rules insert, but just glossed over it!
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: The Balrog's Company

Post by Theo » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:21 am

Is it "of minion characters, only orcs and trolls can be used", or "of characters, only orc minions and troll minions can be used"? *sigh* English. I guess the distinction only matters if his red color makes him not a minion character. :?
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Re: The Balrog's Company

Post by dirhaval » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:01 am

First, I am fine with any player having Ringwraith characters in his sideboard. Right? Ride Against the Enemy allows it, right?

Second, I think the idea of allowing The Balrog to be with other characters at a Darkhaven during the organization phase is from
reading Flame of Udun. Normally, the avatar cannot have followers. Flame of Udun says no other character can be in the same company outside the organization phase. Sounds like to me that statement is not redundant. How else can the avatar play new characters without a troll with direct influence to use? My conclusion is that it is fine having other characters in the same, non-Flame company as The Balrog. I could be wrong.

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the Jabberwock
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Re: The Balrog's Company

Post by the Jabberwock » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:11 am

dirhaval wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:01 am
My conclusion is that it is fine having other characters in the same, non-Flame company as The Balrog. I could be wrong.
This seems to be the conclusion of most of the community, and is how it is currently interpreted at the tournament level.

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