Council of Elrond

Had a situation recently where I (as a RW player) using The Mouth and sitting at a Darkhaven on my final turn was presented with a Mouth of Sauron hazard short event which forced the return of my The Mouth to my hand and I could only transfer 1 item to another character (he was alone, my item was discarded). This caused a ~6MP shift on the final turn of play that makes no sense from a lore perspective.

I can only assume the text on The Mouth is intended to allow the controlling player to play a Mouth of Sauron hazard and therefore time the play of the hazard and return of The Mouth to their own hand appropriately. Seems reasonable at least. As a hazard forcing the return-to-hand of your primary 9 Mind character regardless of location and with no cancellation chance, this is a brutal hazard.

No other Hero or Minion Unique Character with a correlating Unique Hazard Creature/Event card seems to have this exception to the typical rule of:
"no other unique manifestations (except other dragon manifestations) may be played"

Thoughts?

Take a look at the Last Child of Ungoliant ally. And I agree with you that the character and resource in question should have priority, but ICE most certainly didn't.

Keep in mind, though, that a RW player has an exceptionally strong method of getting rid of Nazgul perms:

you can play a Ringwraith card even if the corresponding manifestation Nazgûl hazard permanent-event is already in play. In this case, the Nazgûl hazard permanent-event is discarded.

This applies to both your RW and any RW followers you play.

Moriquendi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:50 pm As a hazard forcing the return-to-hand of your primary 9 Mind character regardless of location and with no cancellation chance, this is a brutal hazard.

Thoughts?

I agree completely. This is made worse by the fact that "Mouth of Sauron" is playable in every deck and is played in most decks. Personally, I feel that ICE just messed up with this. It is a design flaw. They should have said "If The Mouth is in play, then Mouth of Sauron (hazard) may not be played", or something similar.

the Jabberwock wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:34 am They should have said "If The Mouth is in play, then Mouth of Sauron (hazard) may not be played", or something similar.

I would change the text to, "You may choose to return The Mouth to your hand when Mouth of Sauron is played..."

I like the idea of a controlling character playing Mouth of Sauron (hazard) as a way to port him back to a Darkhaven or Barad-dur without facing hazards. Sure, he gets his items stripped, but imagine you sent him all the way to Rivendell or Bag-End, successfully played whatever you came there for, suffered a wound, etc. During your opponent's phase you get a clean and healed The Mouth delivered back to your hand and he re-appears in Morgul on your next turn. Not too shabby. Almost like a reverse-Alatar special ability.

The Mouth wrote:MPs: 3
Mind: 9
Direct Influence: 4
Prowess/Body: 6/8
Skill(s)/Race: Warrior/Diplomat Man
Home Site: Barad-dûr
Unique. Manifestation of Mouth of Sauron. +2 direct inlfuence against any faction. Tap during your organization phase to move one resource or character from your discard pile to your play deck and reshuffle. Return The Mouth to your hand when Mouth of Sauron is played; you may automatically transfer one item he bears to a character in the same company (discard the rest).

3 MP, +6 against factions, 6/8 prow/body and his recycle ability are extremely good. Therefore ICE included the drawback of returning the character to your hand. I think that this is absolutely ok. In a tournament environment The Mouth is seen quite often despite the fact that every deck has Mouth of Sauron!!! He is your man if you want to influence e.g. dragon factions. Of course you have to prepare for the moment when Mouth of Sauron hits the table. Therefore, most people play him with We Have Come to Kill during the site phase, let him influence a faction and do so again if The Mouth gets returned to your hand. Imo he is one of the best characters for minions still.

(METW) Mouth of Sauron and (MELE) The Mouth, are done so perfectly, and I absolutely love the balance.

The Mouth would be slapped down on the table by (almost) EVERY minion player, as an absolute NO BRAINER and he still is! There are special things you can do with him, and his almost unlimited power, especially in a Lidless Eye Manifestation deck, is just sick!

I mean to put it bluntly to be able to have a character that:

1. A Palantir and a Focus Palantir in play on turn 1 is INSANE!
2. On any turn it's insane.
3. 4 RAW influence +2 for faction is Great!
4. He's a 6/8 which is a little dangerous (Cirdan range, he dies a lot ) But still good.
5. 3 MP with no penalty if he dies.
6. If you want your opponent to sit there and hold his Mouth of Sauron till the end, let him!
6a. Then use rings since he won't use and abuse Rolled down to the Sea over and over.
7. More?

It's great, I love Mouth, the Hazard gets Hazards the Character gets Resources/Characters

One last thing, if two minion decks were playing it would be a race to who gets their "SECURE" Mouth on the board...

BROKEN!

You can take advantage of it and bring your own The Mouth back to hand through "Mouth of Sauron", recover a "Ride against the enemy" from the discard and use it with The Mouth

Can someone catch me up? How could return-to-hand ability of The Mouth (or Last Child of Ungoliant) ever be triggered? The other version couldn't be played to cause them to return to hand.

MELE p56 wrote:

• If one manifestation of such an entity is already in play, you may not play another manifestation of the same entity.

...
Note: If one card says that it is the manifestation of another card, these restrictions apply to both cards.

(There is an exception for Dragon manifestations.)

I was thinking perhaps the abilities were meant to return them from the discard pile to hand, but The Mouth's iitem transfer wouldn't fit with that.

It's not explicitly stated, but the Mouth's text at least implies that Mouth of Sauron can be played, as otherwise it would be a completely useless ability. As with most questions, we can blame ICE's astonishing imprecision in wording.

I have no issue with the cards about the Mouth.
What I might do early in the game is to send the Mouth to Shelob's Lair just to be killed.
Then send my main RW Adunaphel with Uvatha as a follower to the same site to end Uvatha's existence.

However, I have considered using The Mouth to quickly play factions. Then if the hazard manifestation is
played, then great. That means I have 9 GI free to use next turn. Which I have Lt. of Minas Morgul
sitting at Cirith Ungol Awaiting the Call just for that effect. Radbug is in hand too to be played.

Yes, use Ride Against the Enemy in the deck to use The Mouth next turn.

dirhaval wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:06 pm What I might do early in the game is to send the Mouth to Shelob's Lair just to be killed.
Then send my main RW Adunaphel with Uvatha as a follower to the same site to end Uvatha's existence.

Well I guess that's one way to get those two annoyances off both sides of the play table.