Röac the Raven

[Mordakai]

After some errata and CRF, I still don't know how this card works. Should I tap him in the site phase, no matter the site, and try to bring any faction in play, regardless of any other site conditions*? Can I support that with Lordly Presence/Tempering Friendship/similars that don't state specifically influencing character, as A Friend or Three?
My second question is because I'm not really sure if Röac is trying to influence the faction himself, as I have to tap him, discard him and after that try to bring the faction with an influence check... Is he really influencing the faction? The bird has just been discarded, so how can he do that?

Could someone enlighten me, please?

* Even the Returned Exiles? This is an interesting question, as there is no need to defeat a dragon at home, I think. The cards asks for a site where an at home manifestation was defeated, but as Röac allows me to bypass site restrictions, I don't care where is that place, or even if it exists... Thoughts?

[Bandobras Took]

For reference:

Unique. Playable at any site in Northern Rhovanion. Tap and discard to attempt to bring any faction into play - treat this influence check as though it were made by a diplomat.

Card Erratum: Replace "no modifications to the influence check are required." with "treat this influence check as if it was made by a diplomat."
His special ability may only be used during the site phase.
He can make the attempt by himself.
Using this ally to make an influence attempt does not tap a site, and may be done if his company is at a tapped site.

To answer:

Any faction means any faction. If you have it in your hand and it can be influenced, you can attempt to bring it into play.

For specific cards, you have the right principle, which is checking the text of a given card against what's happening in the game. Lordly Presence works because you're supposed to treat the check as though it's made by a Diplomat, and Tempering Friendship just looks for an influence attempt.

Discarding Roac is an active condition of declaring an influence attempt against a faction. In this case, there won't be any modifications based on the race of the influencer because there isn't one. There's just an influence attempt that's treated as though it were made by a Diplomat.

[Mordakai]

Card Erratum: Replace "no modifications to the influence check are required." with "treat this influence check as if it was made by a diplomat."
His special ability may only be used during the site phase.
He can make the attempt by himself.
Using this ally to make an influence attempt does not tap a site, and may be done if his company is at a tapped site.

All understood except for one thing: what does the underlined text means? Can Röac make influece checks to play factions without the special ability of discard-any faction-blah-blah-stuff, as a regular character?

[Konrad Klar]

I think that without "He can make the attempt by himself." someone could understand that the attempt allowed by tapping and discarding Röac the Raven may be done by other character in (former) Röac's company.

[Bandobras Took]

I agree with Konrad; that line is to clarify that the ability alone is sufficient.

[dirhaval]

I read that line of himself to be no using of A Friend or Three. I think the abstract idea is
the ally is flying away from his current site to the site in which the faction is playable.
Then the ally takes a vacation (i.e. discarded).

I like using this ally to play a faction far from me where my opponent is mostly moving.
Then I play cards like No Escape From my Magic and Trouble on All Borders.

[Bandobras Took]

I read that line of himself to be no using of A Friend or Three. I think the abstract idea is
the ally is flying away from his current site to the site in which the faction is playable.
Then the ally takes a vacation (i.e. discarded).

But it's that he "can" make the attempt by himself, not that he must.

[Theo]

But it's that he "can" make the attempt by himself, not that he must.

But if he is discarded he is no longer in any party... who could help him?

[Bandobras Took]

But it's that he "can" make the attempt by himself, not that he must.

But if he is discarded he is no longer in any party... who could help him?

That's part of ICE's sloppy wording. Further examples:

Spell. Wizard only. All of the strikes from one attack against your Wizard's company fail; -3 to any body checks made to determine if the attack is defeated. Discard the Wizard (i.e. he becomes unrevealed) and any non-item cards he controls. Place any items he controls under his card and keep these off to the side (these items are considered to still be in play). If the Wizard is put back into play, return his items to him and place Sacrifice of Form with him. Wizard receives +1 to his prowess, body and direct influence. May not be duplicated on a given Wizard.

Current rulings say discarding the Wizard is an active condition of the card, in which case, there's no attack against the Wizard's company; he's discarded. Even without that, if the Wizard's discarded, then there are no longer any items he controls.

Playable at the end of the organization phase on a moving company.

Companies aren't moving during the organization phase; they're still at the site.

Alternatively, discard during organization phase to allow its bearer's company to play an additional region card.

If it's discarded, there is not a bearer.

And so forth.

If not stored, discard to give +3 to an influence attempt against a faction by a character in the same company.

So likewise with Dark Numbers; it would be impossible to ever use this card if there were no longer an associated company once it was discarded.

[Konrad Klar]

Card Erratum: Replace "no modifications to the influence check are required." with "treat this influence check as if it was made by a diplomat."
His special ability may only be used during the site phase.
He can make the attempt by himself.
Using this ally to make an influence attempt does not tap a site, and may be done if his company is at a tapped site.

Underline mine.

Röac the Raven is normally a diplomat. I think that reason for the underlined text is that Röac the Raven is not present at declaration nor at resolution of the attempt, so without this text the attempt could not be considered as made by a diplomat.

Unlike a playing of an ally, or an item, where there is a character that takes a one of the resources under its control, an influence attempt does not require such "recipient". In other words an influence attempt cannot be fizzled by removing an influencing entity before resolution of the attempt (in case of Röac the Raven, even at declaration). Of course, in such case, unused DI, skills, race, etc. of the influencing entity will not be taken into account when it will came to resolution of the attempt.

A Friend or Three says: "For every character in the influencing character's company, ..."
Röac the Raven is not an character, and CRF does not say that the attempt is treated as made by character.

[dirhaval]

Thanks for clarifying. I need new eyes with these old cards.
So another character can make the influence attempt when Roac the Raven is discarded; make sense now.
I flunk Old Raven in middle school.

[Mordakai]

Thanks for clarifying. I need new eyes with these old cards.
So another character can make the influence attempt when Roac the Raven is discarded; make sense now.
I flunk Old Raven in middle school.

Probably it's because I'm not a native English speaker, but... how is the underlined sentence inferred from the rest of the texts mentioned in this thread? I mean: Can I tap and discard Roac to perform an influece check to a faction with another character in his (former, as he is discarded) company? Forgive me, but I don't see that anywhere, please explain...

[Theo]

Current rulings say discarding the Wizard is an active condition of the card

Could you clarify what you mean by "active condition of the card"? Something like "the card has no effect unless this is done"? But I think I get your implication that all of the card needs to be interpreted before any of it is implemented, so the influence attempt is made under an interpretation of Roac still being in the party.

I don't think anyone in the party can help the influence attempt. Roac is an ally, so not a character for purposes other than combat and the use of cards that requiring a skill. I can't think of any ways that other characters could assist that don't require a character (When You Know More, Palm To Palm).

Another character cannot make the influence attempt if at the very least they do not meet the faction's site requirements (the rules aren't explicit enough to prevent it altogether). Roac's ability implies only that an attempt (implying a roll) can be made. It does not remove the rule requirement that "you must tap one of your characters that is at the 'site' indicated on the faction's card... add your character's unused direct influence..." (MELE 38) While you could make the roll regardless from Roac, if you do not tap one of your characters that is at the site for the first part, no such character could be referenced by the second part, so no adding unused direct influence.

[Konrad Klar]

I read that line of himself to be no using of A Friend or Three. I think the abstract idea is
the ally is flying away from his current site to the site in which the faction is playable.
Then the ally takes a vacation (i.e. discarded).

But it's that he "can" make the attempt by himself, not that he must.

He can, but does not must.
In second case he does not tap and he is not discarded.

Other interpretation, such that after tapping and discarding the Röac the Raven any character in his former company can make attempt, but also he ( Röac the Raven) can make the attempt by himself, has the problem - "he" is not present in play at this point.

[Bandobras Took]

@Theo: An Active Condition is a requirement that must be met in order to declare an action. Such a thing must be established when an action is declared, and must still be the case when the action resolves, else the action fizzles.

This is unfortunately one of the largest areas where ICE was none too clear in their wording. What's more, some cards list active conditions for their play (playing a card is an action) and active conditions for their actual text, and these can be contradictory (as an example, Far-sight requires an untapped site for its play and a tapped site for its "search the deck action," which means that at some point during the chain of effects the site must be both tapped and untapped at the same time. ).

The current official interpretation is that discarding your wizard is an active condition for the play of Sacrifice of Form.