When To Tap In The Strike Sequence

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Bandobras Took
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When To Tap In The Strike Sequence

Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:55 pm

MELE wrote:3. A target untapped character may take a -3 modification so that he will not automatically tap following the strike sequence.
Balrog Player Turn Summary wrote:3) If an untapped character is facing a strike, he must tap or take a -3 modification to prowess.
Which of these is correct? One taps after the play of resources to affect the strike, the other before.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

dirhaval
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Re: When To Tap In The Strike Sequence

Post by dirhaval » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:28 pm

I laugh at this idea of tapping because it has to do with timing of the concept instead of timing of the game. I have fallen onto the wrong path on both accounts.
What I mean is, if I tap the character now, does he get the -1 modification to prowess for tapping? Of course not.
I play on GCCG and found myself tapping the character before I roll, but something might come up to not
roll and discuss an issue. Minutes later I go roll seeing the character tapped. So I roll with -1 to prowess.

I think the MEBA insert has missing words. I think what the way to play is:
Roll for the strike tapping the character after the roll if not wounded OR announce not tapping automatically to have -3 to prowess.
Then either keep the character untapped or wound the character if nothing else.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: When To Tap In The Strike Sequence

Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:13 pm

Actually, I'm wondering because a tapped character may have fewer resource options than an untapped character (playing resources comes after this tapped/untapped prowess modifier). I haven't gone through the cards to check if there are ones I might want to play.

As for the -1 for being tapped, that is listed in the same step of the process, so there's no confusion there. A character will be in one of three states when beginning the process: untapped, tapped, or wounded. It doesn't matter for the prowess bonus what they are afterward.

So it is actually a question of mechanical timing. If it occurs after the play of resources but is decided before, I could state the character will tap to face the strike, then play a Marvels Told to get rid of an event affecting the strike's prowess, and then still face the strike without a prowess penalty for being tapped. That's the MELE rule.

The Balrog rules says that I have to tap at the time I say the character will not be taking the -3 penalty. That doesn't allow me to remove an event affecting the strike's prowess with Marvels Told.

(All this assuming my Sage is the one facing a strike.)
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Mordakai
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Re: When To Tap In The Strike Sequence

Post by Mordakai » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:22 pm

I get your point, but I think everyone knows the answer. If your untapped sage is assigned a strike, there is no problem in Marvelingtelling anything before, but he will get the -1 for the strike...

Why?... eeeerh... well... because!!
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...

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Bandobras Took
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Re: When To Tap In The Strike Sequence

Post by Bandobras Took » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:01 am

Mordakai wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:22 pm
I get your point, but I think everyone knows the answer. If your untapped sage is assigned a strike, there is no problem in Marvelingtelling anything before, but he will get the -1 for the strike...

Why?... eeeerh... well... because!!
Granted that this has often been the process for providing rulings in the past, I'd rather have something more clearly defined going forward. :)
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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the Jabberwock
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Re: When To Tap In The Strike Sequence

Post by the Jabberwock » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:13 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:01 am
Granted that this has often been the process for providing rulings in the past, I'd rather have something more clearly defined going forward. :)
Perhaps you should submit this for a clarification during this year’s Annual Rules Vote. :wink:

Personally, I prefer the Balrog Rules version. It was the most recent of the ICE rule books, and this interpretation just feels correct. I never liked the “automatically tap after the strike sequence” because that’s not the intuitive way to play the game. Everyone I have ever played with declares the character is tapping or remaining untapped, then taps the character (if so choosing that option), and
then rolls the dice.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: When To Tap In The Strike Sequence

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:17 am

I am not sure that a most recent must be a most smart.
And I do not know whether CRF beats both quotes in any category, but Annotation 18 is closer to MELE version.
CRF, Turn Sequence, Combat, Strike Sequence wrote:Annotation 18: When a defending player chooses to resolve a strike against a
particular character, the only actions that may be taken by either player until the strike
dice-roll is made are the following: playing hazard cards that affect the strike, the
attacker may decide to use any or all of his remaining -1 modifications due to strikes
in excess of the company's size, a target untapped character may take a -3
modification so that he will not automatically tap, and the defending character may
play resource cards that affect the strike. An action that has the condition that a target
character tap, but which otherwise has an effect not outlined here, may not be
declared at this point.
This is true even if the recipient of the strike would be the target character tapping and
thus receive -1 to his prowess.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Re: When To Tap In The Strike Sequence

Post by rezwits » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:38 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:17 am
I am not sure that a most recent must be a most smart.
And I do not know whether CRF beats both quotes in any category, but Annotation 18 is closer to MELE version.
CRF, Turn Sequence, Combat, Strike Sequence wrote:Annotation 18: When a defending player chooses to resolve a strike against a
particular character, the only actions that may be taken by either player until the strike
dice-roll is made are the following: playing hazard cards that affect the strike, the
attacker may decide to use any or all of his remaining -1 modifications due to strikes
in excess of the company's size, a target untapped character may take a -3
modification so that he will not automatically tap, and the defending character may
play resource cards that affect the strike. An action that has the condition that a target
character tap, but which otherwise has an effect not outlined here, may not be
declared at this point.
This is true even if the recipient of the strike would be the target character tapping and
thus receive -1 to his prowess.
underline mine

Imagine if you will a system/game version, that took care of him automatically tapping?

To me what this is saying is, you choose, and then at the moment of the roll he either gets tapped "automatically" or doesn't get tapped "automatically"

Which is funny because we don't have a way to implement this because we are screwed, and can't roll and tap at the same time, or have it done automatically for us!
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Konrad Klar
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Re: When To Tap In The Strike Sequence

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:34 am

I do not now whether "we are screwed" or not. Nor who is "we" actually.

Why we don't have a way to implement automatic tapping?
How different is it from becoming in wounded state automatically in result of dice roll in strike sequence (if character was not in wounded state already)?
There is a dice roll and there are some result of the roll.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Re: When To Tap In The Strike Sequence

Post by Shapeshifter » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:08 pm

CoE weekly Rulings/Clarifications 17 support the Balrog Player Turn Summary.
CoE weekly Rulings/Clarifications 17 wrote:13. a) Here's the situation: a character is facing a strike from an attack. My opponent wants to tap the character to play Marvels Told to get rid of Minions Stir. According to the CRF, a character facing a strike may only tap to play a resource if this directly affects the strike. I argued that it's not directly affecting it: the direct effect is on Minions Stir which was affecting the total number of strikes and prowess. My opponent felt it was legal because the prowess of the strike he was facing would be modified.
This was a wizard travelling alone. Alternately, even though this character is definately going to be facing a strike, could my opponent have responded to my play of the creature by tapping to MT the Minions Stir before strikes were assigned, thus avoiding the above quandry? (He didn't mention MT until after I had calculated aloud how high the strike's prowess would be - to me that means we had advanced to the strike sequence.)
*** Your opponent could have easily MT'd your Minions Stir when the attack was declared but before facing the strike.
The fact that he asked you how big the strike would be if he had to face it does not mean that he has advanced to the strike sequence. Now, if he had more than one character in the company but less than the total number of strikes, the strikes were assigned, and then he asked you where the modifiers were going to, it would be too late to MT the Minions Stir.

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Re: When To Tap In The Strike Sequence

Post by rezwits » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:16 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:34 am
I do not now whether "we are screwed" or not. Nor who is "we" actually.

Why we don't have a way to implement automatic tapping?
How different is it from becoming in wounded state automatically in result of dice roll in strike sequence (if character was not in wounded state already)?
There is a dice roll and there are some result of the roll.
NO, you are absolutely correct, we (being the meccg community, are not screwed).

What this definition means is, until the dice are thrown, he doesn't get tapped.

The automatic action, is, ROLL DICE, (implement the auto-tapping yourself) i.e. Tap your character.

Not until dice are thrown do you (or your opponent sometimes, who reaches across the table, haha) tap your guy...

Laters...
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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