Konrad's interpretation matches mine. Echo of All Joy cannot see the Doors of Night from inside the Crown of Flowers. No problems.
The concerns Vastor voiced seem to have been that both (1) Echo of All Joy cannot be played because of Doors of Night, and (2) Echo of All Joy cannot be in play because of Doors of Night. Crown of Flowers explicitly speaks to both of these; the affected Echo of All Joy does not think Doors of Night is in play, so its prevention/discard mechanics will not be enacted.
(Keep in mind that the Sun does not see a Gates of Morning.)
New to the game and have some questions.
Last edited by Theo on Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Initially, I had argued that the Doors/Crown/Echo/Sun scenario was not allowable. My logic was that if Doors of Night is in play, Crown of Flowers creates a sort of autonomous bubble for Gates of Morning. Sun is in play outside of that bubble where Doors of Night reigns. Crown of Flowers states "has no effect until you play a resource WITH it." Echo of All Joy states "Play ON a resource if Doors of Night is not in play." I was arguing that it was impossible for Echo of All Joy to simultaneously be "ON" Sun in the Doors of Night realm of play, and "WITH" Crown of Flowers in the Doors-of-Night-less bubble. So my argument was basically that maybe you could play Echo of All Joy with Crown of Flowers, but that it could have no effect on Sun--it could not be ON Sun--because Sun was in play where Doors of Night was also in play. Does that make sense?
I don't think Echo of All Joy is written as asking whether the resource it is played on thinks that Doors of Night is in play, but rather it does a check for Doors of Night for itself.
"Play (on a resource) (if Doors of Night is not in play)."
Or possibly even, "Play (on (a resource if Doors of Night is not in play))."
Rather than, "Play (on (a resource that thinks Doors of Night is not in play))."
I guess I don't see how the literal "if" could notionally become something like "that thinks" within the context of that last parsing. Without that, Echo of All Joy is still what is doing the check---either for general playability as in the first parsing, or for a resource being a possible target as in the second parsing---so it is still persuaded by the Crown of Flowers.
"Play (on a resource) (if Doors of Night is not in play)."
Or possibly even, "Play (on (a resource if Doors of Night is not in play))."
Rather than, "Play (on (a resource that thinks Doors of Night is not in play))."
I guess I don't see how the literal "if" could notionally become something like "that thinks" within the context of that last parsing. Without that, Echo of All Joy is still what is doing the check---either for general playability as in the first parsing, or for a resource being a possible target as in the second parsing---so it is still persuaded by the Crown of Flowers.
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- the JabberwocK
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First, I agree with Theo and Konrad (disagree with Vastor) that Echo of All Joy is playable (in theory, see below) on Crown of Flowers despite Doors of Night being in play. Crown of Flowers speaks to this very directly with: "The resource is considered to be played and to be in play as though...." (bold mine)
However, I'm not so sure it is legal to have Echo of All Joy played with Crown of Flowers and simultaneously on Sun:
It's worth pointing out that even if the above scenario is considered valid, you will not benefit from Sun's second ability because Gates of Morning is not in play and is only considered to be in play for Echo of All Joy. So Echo would keep Sun in play and you would benefit from Sun's first ability only (the prowess of each Dunedan is modified by +1).
If we do not accept that it is legal to first play Echo on Crown and then move both Echo and Crown onto Sun, then Echo is not legally playable at all in this scenario. (Vastor would be right, but for an entirely different reason )
If only Echo said "target a resource long event" instead of "play on a resource long event" it would solve the problem.
However, I'm not so sure it is legal to have Echo of All Joy played with Crown of Flowers and simultaneously on Sun:
I somewhat agree with you here. I'm not really concerned about whether or not Sun is in the "Doors of Night realm of play" as you say, but literally speaking, how can Echo of All Joy be both played on Sun and played with Crown of Flowers? You must play Echo with Crown to begin with (otherwise it is not legal with DoN in play). You must also play Echo on a resource long event (per its playability requirements). So how do we do this? Do we play Echo with Crown and then immediately move both Echo and Crown together onto Sun? If this is considered acceptable, then I suppose it would work.DuncanNeeds2Shave wrote: ↑Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:25 pm Initially, I had argued that the Doors/Crown/Echo/Sun scenario was not allowable. My logic was that if Doors of Night is in play, Crown of Flowers creates a sort of autonomous bubble for Gates of Morning. Sun is in play outside of that bubble where Doors of Night reigns. Crown of Flowers states "has no effect until you play a resource WITH it." Echo of All Joy states "Play ON a resource if Doors of Night is not in play." I was arguing that it was impossible for Echo of All Joy to simultaneously be "ON" Sun in the Doors of Night realm of play, and "WITH" Crown of Flowers in the Doors-of-Night-less bubble. So my argument was basically that maybe you could play Echo of All Joy with Crown of Flowers, but that it could have no effect on Sun--it could not be ON Sun--because Sun was in play where Doors of Night was also in play. Does that make sense?
It's worth pointing out that even if the above scenario is considered valid, you will not benefit from Sun's second ability because Gates of Morning is not in play and is only considered to be in play for Echo of All Joy. So Echo would keep Sun in play and you would benefit from Sun's first ability only (the prowess of each Dunedan is modified by +1).
If we do not accept that it is legal to first play Echo on Crown and then move both Echo and Crown onto Sun, then Echo is not legally playable at all in this scenario. (Vastor would be right, but for an entirely different reason )
If only Echo said "target a resource long event" instead of "play on a resource long event" it would solve the problem.
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This is obvious for me.the Jabberwock wrote: ↑Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:43 am It's worth pointing out that even if the above scenario is considered valid, you will not benefit from Sun's second ability because Gates of Morning is not in play and is only considered to be in play for Echo of All Joy. So Echo would keep Sun in play and you would benefit from Sun's first ability only (the prowess of each Dunedan is modified by +1).
Echo is not played on Crown. It is played with Crown on Sun.the Jabberwock wrote: ↑Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:43 am If we do not accept that it is legal to first play Echo on Crown and then move both Echo and Crown onto Sun, then Echo is not legally playable at all in this scenario. (Vastor would be right, but for an entirely different reason
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Yes, I meant with as I had mentioned elsewhere in the post, thanks. You believe that there is no conflict here and Echo may be played with Crown (attach it to Crown) and then be played on Sun (with Crown attached)? I suppose technically once Echo is played with Crown, it would then be placed on Sun, not played on it, since you've already played the card with Crown. I don't see how you can "play with Crown" and "play on Sun" simultaneously.Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:59 amEcho is not played on Crown. It is played with Crown on Sun.the Jabberwock wrote: ↑Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:43 am If we do not accept that it is legal to first play Echo on Crown and then move both Echo and Crown onto Sun, then Echo is not legally playable at all in this scenario. (Vastor would be right, but for an entirely different reason
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I think that I now I understand your doubts.
With Crown: a card A, that normally would be played on card B, is played with Crown on card B.
With Crown: a card A, that normally would be played on card B, is played with Crown on card B.
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CDavis7M ^ kool!
Soooo....Is the Crown/Doors/Echo/Sun question conversation lingering indefinitely in limbo? Or is it settled and the Jabberwock's answer is NO. It seems to me that he is doubtful, but there is no definite answer yet.
Soooo....Is the Crown/Doors/Echo/Sun question conversation lingering indefinitely in limbo? Or is it settled and the Jabberwock's answer is NO. It seems to me that he is doubtful, but there is no definite answer yet.
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The CoE does not currently have an active NetRep to give official rulings on rules questions. This means sometimes there is a rules question which may not have a definitive answer. In these situations the best you can do is to consider the opinions given and then have your playgroup make their own decision on how you will handle that rule situation. If you think a particular unclear situation is worthy of an official clarification or erratum, you can always submit it for consideration to be included in the next Annual Rules Vote.DuncanNeeds2Shave wrote: ↑Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:24 pm Soooo....Is the Crown/Doors/Echo/Sun question conversation lingering indefinitely in limbo? Or is it settled and the Jabberwock's answer is NO. It seems to me that he is doubtful, but there is no definite answer yet.
The simultaneity seems fine to me. A link in a chain simultaneously attaches two other links; one cannot attach either link before the other, or else it isn't truly attached. I guess I'm assuming a simple O link.the Jabberwock wrote: ↑Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:13 amI don't see how you can "play with Crown" and "play on Sun" simultaneously.
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1. If I have 20 used direct influence, my wizard at Lorien with Glorfindel II (8 Mind) under his control, during my organization phase, may I remove Glorfindel II from the wizard's control and then play Galadriel under the wizard's control, and then discard Glorfindel II or some other character(s) to get back under 20 general influence at the end of the organization phase?
2. If I want to play Rebuild the Town (erratum: playable during the site phase on a ruins and lairs) which turns the site into a border-hold with no automatic attacks, on a site like The Stones, may I still play greater items there? Basically, does it circumvent the automatic attack and still allow me to play items there?
3. If I have Folco Boffin in play with an elf-stone, and he is at a haven, provided that I have enough general influence, if I choose to replace him with say Bilbo, does the elf-stone transfer to Bilbo, like with Strider>Aragorn II, or is the elf-stone discarded?
2. If I want to play Rebuild the Town (erratum: playable during the site phase on a ruins and lairs) which turns the site into a border-hold with no automatic attacks, on a site like The Stones, may I still play greater items there? Basically, does it circumvent the automatic attack and still allow me to play items there?
3. If I have Folco Boffin in play with an elf-stone, and he is at a haven, provided that I have enough general influence, if I choose to replace him with say Bilbo, does the elf-stone transfer to Bilbo, like with Strider>Aragorn II, or is the elf-stone discarded?
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1. No. In the event of influence issues during the organization phase, you must first return played characters to your hand.
2. Yes. Keep in mind that it was errataed to be playable during the site phase only after having faced the automatic attack(s).
3. The elf-stone is discarded.
2. Yes. Keep in mind that it was errataed to be playable during the site phase only after having faced the automatic attack(s).
3. The elf-stone is discarded.
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Regarding general influence, is it possible to play a character and simultaneously give him/her a follower to meet the general influence limit? I ran into a situation where I had Cirdan controlling Annalena, and a number of other characters in play to make my total used general influence 19. Unfortunately, Cirdan felt the Call of the Sea, returning him to my hand and making Annalena a non-follower, so my total used general influence became 14. Since Cirdan has a mind of 8, I no longer had a way to play him in the following turns.
Is there any way around this, like playing him and immediately declaring Annalena to be his follower?
Is there any way around this, like playing him and immediately declaring Annalena to be his follower?
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