The Evenstar

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kodi
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The Evenstar

Post by kodi »

Hi everybody!

I want to use a card in a new Elven-Wilderness deck and I think that the card "The Evenstar" could be usefull.

The problem is that I have some doubts about how to use/resolve it in some scenarios related with Gates of Morning and when played.
The Evenstar
Environment. The prowess of one Elf is modified by +1 until the end of the turn. Additionally, if Gates of Morning is in play, the prowess of each Elf is modified by +1 (until the end of turn); and, you may choose: one Wilderness treat as Border-land OR or one Border-land to treat as a Freeland. Cannot be duplicated.
Scenario 1:
I play Evenstar in untap phase without GoM in play. (+1 Prowess of one Elf). In m/h phase, I play GoM. Then happens the second effect? (+1 to all elves in play) Or the second effect only happens if GoM was in play when Evenstar resolves in untap phase?

Scenario 2:
Similar to Scenario 1. I play Evenstar in untap phase with GoM in play. (+1 Prowess of one Elf and +1 to all elves). In m/h phase, opponent discards my GoM. Dissapears the second effect? No more +1 to all elves?

Scenario 3:
Related to treat one Wilderness as a Bordeland: if I play Evenstar in untap phase, when decide which Wilderness to transform? Before resolve Evenstar or I can do it at any moment during my turn?

And which Wilderness? In my path? Any in the map? Any of a site path?

Example: I play Evenstar with GoM in organization. If I move from Rivendel to Bree and opponent plays cavedrake. In response, can I transform wilderness?

Scenario 4:
I play Evenstar in organizaion with GoM in play. I decide target Cirdan +1 prowess. In addition, +1 to all Elves. The, is Cirdan +2 to prowess?

Thanxs

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Konrad Klar
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Re: The Evenstar

Post by Konrad Klar »

kodi wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:36 am
Scenario 1:
I play Evenstar in untap phase without GoM in play. (+1 Prowess of one Elf). In m/h phase, I play GoM. Then happens the second effect? (+1 to all elves in play) Or the second effect only happens if GoM was in play when Evenstar resolves in untap phase?
Second effect only happens if GoM is in play when Evenstar resolves.
kodi wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:36 am
Scenario 2:
Similar to Scenario 1. I play Evenstar in untap phase with GoM in play. (+1 Prowess of one Elf and +1 to all elves). In m/h phase, opponent discards my GoM. Dissapears the second effect? No more +1 to all elves?
The second effect does not disappear due to discarding a GoM. However if GoM has been discarded in result of Doors of Night, DoN additionally cancels all resource environment effects.
kodi wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:36 am
Scenario 3:
Related to treat one Wilderness as a Bordeland: if I play Evenstar in untap phase, when decide which Wilderness to transform? Before resolve Evenstar or I can do it at any moment during my turn?
Good question.
CRF, Errata(Cards), Evenstar wrote:Can be played even if there are no Wilderness in play. Does not affect attacks.
This means that the Wilderness (presumably also the Border-land) is not target of the card.
This in turn means that it is not specified at declaration.
This in turn means that it may be specified when The Evenstar resolves.
kodi wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:36 am
And which Wilderness? In my path? Any in the map? Any of a site path?
Any in play (some Wildernesses may exist in path, but not at map, if starter or special movement is used).
kodi wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:36 am
Example: I play Evenstar with GoM in organization. If I move from Rivendel to Bree and opponent plays cavedrake. In response, can I transform wilderness?
No. You may specify the Wilderness (or the Border-land) when The Evenstar resolves, not later.
kodi wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:36 am
Scenario 4:
I play Evenstar in organizaion with GoM in play. I decide target Cirdan +1 prowess. In addition, +1 to all Elves. The, is Cirdan +2 to prowess?

Yes. Cirdan has +2 to prowess.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

kodi
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Re: The Evenstar

Post by kodi »

Thank you Konrad! Very usefull answer ;)

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bosquet
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Re: The Evenstar

Post by bosquet »

Scenario: GoM in play. Gandalf goes from Lorien to Wellinghall on his own, but a Cave Drake surprises him. Can I play The Evenstar to change one of these wilderness, if I have an elf on another company? just as Marvels Told are played...

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bosquet
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Re: The Evenstar

Post by bosquet »

I answer to myself:
You may target your own characters with resources during M/H of your other company (unless resource [or character card] states otherwise).

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Konrad Klar
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Re: The Evenstar

Post by Konrad Klar »

bosquet wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:34 pm
Scenario: GoM in play. Gandalf goes from Lorien to Wellinghall on his own, but a Cave Drake surprises him. Can I play The Evenstar to change one of these wilderness, if I have an elf on another company? just as Marvels Told are played...
You can play The Evenstar to increase a target Elf's prowess. Additionally you can change [-me_wi-] to [-me_bl-] in the Gandalf company's path (or just change a region type of Wold and Foothils or Fangorn).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Mordakai
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Re: The Evenstar

Post by Mordakai »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:44 pm
bosquet wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:34 pm
Scenario: GoM in play. Gandalf goes from Lorien to Wellinghall on his own, but a Cave Drake surprises him. Can I play The Evenstar to change one of these wilderness, if I have an elf on another company? just as Marvels Told are played...
You can play The Evenstar to increase a target Elf's prowess. Additionally you can change [-me_wi-] to [-me_bl-] in the Gandalf company's path (or just change a region type of Wold and Foothils or Fangorn).
Is really the presence of an Elf needed to play the Evenstar? Due to the wording of the card, I don't think so. It does not say "Playable on an Elf" or any similar formula. It says it's an envirnmental resource that can increase the prowess of an Elf, and additionally can make other things... or no?
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...

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Mordakai
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Re: The Evenstar

Post by Mordakai »

Auto-answer:

Yo cannot play something for no effect (or something similar said the rules, I think).

But if that is the case, can it be played without the presence of an Elf IF GoM are in play, so you can get the additional effect?
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...

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Theo
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Re: The Evenstar

Post by Theo »

The Evenstar requires an Elf.
CRF wrote:Annotation 8: An action that requires a target is considered to have the active condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved. An action may not be declared if its target is not in play.
CRF wrote:A target is an entity that an action is played out through. Enitities [sic] are only targets of an action if the action specifies those entities by number and type. Note that "the foo" counts as specifying one "foo."
That there exists a card effect (the first) which is played out through a specified "one Elf" is sufficient.
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bosquet
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Re: The Evenstar

Post by bosquet »

It also says that can not be duplicated. Does this mean...?

a) If there are no GoM, I can't use it twice with the same elf, but I can use it with another one along the same turn. (The short event effect is not going to be duplicated)

b) If there are GoM I can't use it twice with the same elf, but I can play another Evenstar with another one. (The first effect is not going to be duplicated, but elves are going to have +2 power, so that effect is duplicated).

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CDavis7M
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Re: The Evenstar

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:42 pm
The Evenstar requires an Elf.
The Evenstar does NOT require an Elf. The Elf targeting effect is not the only target of the effects of The Evenstar. Note that The Evenstar does not have any playability conditions at all, let alone conditions requiring an Elf to be in play. Therefore, the only thing that would prevent The Evenstar from being played would be if it has no effect on the game.

Therefore, if Gates of Morning is in play at both declaration and resolution of The Evenstar and there is a region type in play that could be changed by The Evenstar, then The Evenstar could be played for the region-changing effect even though there is no target for the Elf process boosting effect.
CRF wrote:Can be played even if there are no Wilderness in play.
Just as the Evenstar can be played with no Wilderness, it can also be played with no Elves. However, it cannot be played if there is no effect at all on the game.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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CDavis7M
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Re: The Evenstar

Post by CDavis7M »

bosquet wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:49 pm
It also says that can not be duplicated. Does this mean...?

a) If there are no GoM, I can't use it twice with the same elf, but I can use it with another one along the same turn. (The short event effect is not going to be duplicated)

b) If there are GoM I can't use it twice with the same elf, but I can play another Evenstar with another one. (The first effect is not going to be duplicated, but elves are going to have +2 power, so that effect is duplicated).
The rules are:
Annotation 11 (modified from its original version): Some cards cannot be duplicated in limited cases -- generally on a specific target. Multiple copies of these cards or their effects may be in play normally, so long as each applies to a different target. A card that cannot be duplicated can be played when a copy is already in play only if the copy in play is currently being targeted by an effect that will discard it.
Since the "cannot be duplicated" on The Evenstar is not limited to a character, it cannot be duplicated at all in the same turn WHILE it's effects are still in play.

Therefore, if no elves are in play and 1 company moves to Rivendell using region movement with GoM in play, and you used The Evenstar to change the region type of Rhudaur, then the effects of The Evenstar would leave play when Rhudaur leaves play at the end of the M/H Phase. Meaning that you could use The Evenstar again on a 2nd company moving through Wold & Foothills to change its region type. However, if any effect was still in play then you cannot play The Evenstar again.

If The Evenstar had said "cannot be duplicated on a given target" then you could play it on multiple different elves if GoM was not in play.

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bosquet
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Re: The Evenstar

Post by bosquet »

How about playing an Evenstar while GoM are not in play (an elf has +1 till the end of the turn), and later on GoM come into play. May I play another Evenstar in another elf? (no effect would be duplicated).

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CDavis7M
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Re: The Evenstar

Post by CDavis7M »

That sounds reasonable but it doesn't work.

If a card states that it is "unique" or that it "may not be duplicated,'' only one such card (or its effects) may be in play at a time.

The Evenstar is not limited to only not being duplicated on a single character even if GoM is not out.

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Theo
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Re: The Evenstar

Post by Theo »

You can play multiple non-GoM The Evenstar if played on different elves. The effect is different when it has a different target. (For CDavis7M: Scott Frazer 10/24/96)[CRF requires no effect affecting play.]

So yes, a non-GoM The Evenstar followed by a GoM The Evenstar with first effect targeting a different elf is also fine.

[Caveat: the first elf needs to no longer be in play.]

---

Regarding the Wilderness, perhaps the ICE was making an exception in that case, or perhaps it was pointing out that one doesn't need a Wilderness when Gates of Morning is not in play. [Actually, the Wilderness is entirely consistent with the Unlimited printing of the card, which stipulates that changing a region is optional ("may")]. Violating Annotation 8 is not necessary.
CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:57 pm
Note that The Evenstar does not have any playability conditions at all, let alone conditions requiring an Elf to be in play.
Annotation 8 creates a playability condition because playing the card requires declaring its effects. If you want to break down the idea that declaring a card requires declaring all of its effects, any card printed to have a negative effect for whoever played it is essentially wasted ink ("Oh, I'm just not going to declare the second Motionless Among the Slain effect...").

[edit: added caveat]
[edit: fix Wilderness for Unlimited version of card]
Last edited by Theo on Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:48 am, edited 4 times in total.
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