maker's map and secrets of their forgering

[coro]

Makers map and secrets of their forgering.
I was taking a look at the redhills deck and I would like to ask about the playability of maker’s map in the worthy hills:

Balrog specific. Playable during the site phase on an untapped ranger at an untapped site where Information is playable. Tap the ranger and the site. +2 to all rolls for his company to move to adjacent Under-deeps sites. "It was well for the company that they had such a guide."-LotRII

Reading the text I’m not sure if taping the site is a requirement needed to be fullfit for playing the card (worthy hills can’t be tapped).

If it’s not necessary, I suppose that cards with identic text that doesn’t say that you need an untapped site, can be played even if the site is tapped. (secrets of their forgering, for example)

Sage only. Playable on a sage during the site phase at a site where information is playable if a character in his company has a gold ring item. Tap the sage and the site. You may replace the gold ring with a special item ring from your hand (except for The One Ring) for which the gold ring could be normally be tested. Discard the gold ring item.

Can anybody solve this doubt?

[Leon]

Cards that specify that they tap the site can be played at the minion Worthy Hills. The requirements of Makers Map are an untapped ranger and an untapped site where information is playable. If a card says the site must be tapped after the card is played then the requirement will be for the site to be untapped before.

CRF:

The Worthy Hills
Since this site never taps, no free minor items may be played here.
(Minion version) The Worthy Hills effect of not tapping does not interfere with the satisfying of active conditions.

[coro]

then, if i understand correctly i can play secrets of their forging at a tapped site and even with a tapped sage...

[Leon]

No, you can play Secrets of their Forging with an untapped sage at an untapped site. Afterwards tap the sage and the site. In the case of the Worthy Hills only the sage is tapped according to the CRF.

[Bandobras Took]

No, you can play Secrets of their Forging with an untapped sage at an untapped site. Afterwards tap the sage and the site. In the case of the Worthy Hills only the sage is tapped according to the CRF.

Resource events do not generally require an untapped site. This may vary based upon specific card text.

In other words, by the rules, unless the resource event in question specifically says "untapped site" (e.g. Maker's Map, Dreams of Lore, Reforging), then the site doesn't need to be untapped. Certain resource events will tap a site if it happens to be untapped, but that is not the same thing as requiring an untapped site.

[coro]

sorry to bother you again, but I'm not sure of understanding this... The active conditions of secrets of their forging are a sage and a site where information is playable, not an untapped sage and an untapped site where information is playable, as it says in dreams of lore, for example.

[Leon]

Usually events that are playable at a tapped site state specifically that they are, or have some text like tap the site if it is untapped. I think that Secrets of Their Forging is only playable if you can tap a site and a sage and that the Worthy Hills is the only exception here which overrules this, but what Brandobras says appears otherwise.

So, does Secrets of Their Forging require anything to be untapped or not?

[Bandobras Took]

Usually events that are playable at a tapped site state specifically that they are

I can only think of those that require a tapped site; e.g. Rescue Prisoners, Smoke on the Wind.

or have some text like tap the site if it is untapped.

I know Vein of Arda has that, but are there any others?

I think that Secrets of Their Forging is only playable if you can tap a site and a sage and that the Worthy Hills is the only exception here which overrules this, but what Brandobras says appears otherwise.

So, does Secrets of Their Forging require anything to be untapped or not?

The general rule seems to be that resource events must state they require an untapped site, otherwise, they do not.

I do not think a card saying "tap the site" equals "requires an untapped site" any more than I think "does not tap the site" equals "playable at a tapped site."

[Konrad Klar]

sorry to bother you again, but I'm not sure of understanding this... The active conditions of secrets of their forging are a sage and a site where information is playable, not an untapped sage and an untapped site where information is playable, as it says in dreams of lore, for example.

You are right. Maybe text of Secrets of Their Forging was written by ICE without care and conditions "untapped sage, untapped site" should be printed here (because mechanics of this card is very similar to e.g. Far-sight or All Thought Bent upon It), however ICE never decided to make appropriate errata.

@Leon

I don't think that CRF entry for minion The Worthy Hills is special ability of this site. I think that it is rather simple consequence of fact that tapping site is not condition for Information cards. Similarly unability to play minor item is consequence of fact that free minor may be played only after successful play of resource that taps site.

[Wacho]

Worthy Hills breaks the normal rules, as specified in the CRF. Tapping the site is an active condition on Maker's Map. So tapping is required and the site must be untapped. However, the text on Worthy Hills overrides this and the CRF entry overrules the normal requirements for active conditions.

[Leon]

So now a specific question again: can Secrets of Their Forging be played at a tapped site by a tapped sage?

Your answer seems to indicate so, but please help us out.

Cards that I was refering to earlier are things like The Windlord Found Me (only at an untapped site) and Here There or Yonder (at tapped or untapped site) and To the Uthermost Foundations (tap site if untapped)

Other cards with the same problem as Secrets of Their Forging:

Map to Mithrill.
Playable on a Dwarf during the site phase at a site at which "Information" is playable. Tap the Dwarf and site.
Tap Map to Mithril if bearer is ever at Moria; this card never untaps.
If Map to Mithril is at a Dwarf-hold and it is tapped, the bearer may tap himself and place this card with a non-unique weapon in his company. This gives the weapon a +3 prowess bonus.

When you Know More
Light enchantment. Playable on a sage during the site phase at a site where "Information" is playable. Tap sage and site. Tap sage to modify one influence attempt by a character in his company by +2. Sage makes a corruption check

When I Know Anything
Light Enchantment. Playable on a sage during the site phase at a site where "Information" is playable. Tap sage and site.
Tap sage to modify one corruption check by a character in his company by +3. Sage makes a corruption check.

What about all these? I think tap the site does mean playable only at an untapped site, though does not tap the site and playable at an untapped site are different.

[coro]

Worthy Hills breaks the normal rules, as specified in the CRF. Tapping the site is an active condition on Maker's Map. So tapping is required and the site must be untapped. However, the text on Worthy Hills overrides this and the CRF entry overrules the normal requirements for active conditions.

Do you mean that maker's map is playable at worthy hills only because CRF says it?

I only can understand it if we consider that the active conditions are the untapped ranger and the untapped site and that taping the site and the ranger aren't

[Konrad Klar]

I'm sure that having target of action is not tha same as having target that is able to perform action.

Example is Tom Bombadil and Marvels Told. Sage must make cc. However Tom Bombadil cannot make cc. Token of Goodwill and Radagast's Black Bird. Diplomat must make cc but is unable to do cc.

[Wacho]

Worthy Hills breaks the normal rules, as specified in the CRF. Tapping the site is an active condition on Maker's Map. So tapping is required and the site must be untapped. However, the text on Worthy Hills overrides this and the CRF entry overrules the normal requirements for active conditions.

Do you mean that maker's map is playable at worthy hills only because CRF says it?

Yes. If an active condition says to tap something you must tap it when the card is played. If it is already tapped you may not play the card. Worthy Hills overrides these rules based on the CRF entry. The other cards you mention all are similar in they have tap character and site as active conditions.

[Bandobras Took]

The other cards you mention all are similar in they have tap character and site as active conditions.

I would disagree; by this logic, Darkness Under Tree

Playable on an untapped Orc, Troll, or Man character if Doors of Night is in play. Tap the character.

would have tapping the character as an active condition, since the wording is the same.

Just because a card tells you to tap another card doesn't mean it's an active condition.