Discarding Stage Resources & Their Ripple Effects
- Bandobras Took
- Rules Wizard
- Posts: 3109
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm
I think I see what you are saying, but wouldn't that make the card unplayable in a FW vs hero game if the FW does nothing but move to Free-holds? All he has to do to invalidate the card is not include minion versions of sites in his location deck.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
- Konrad Klar
- Rules Wizard
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- Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Yes.
Until Against The Shadow a minion player did not have access to an Under-deeps site cards. Sending a company to a site for which he does not have (because cannot have) card in Location Deck in order to playing an item associated with Great Secrets Buried There could look to ICE as too big challenge. Of course a minion player could use Voices of Malice.
Since Against The Shadow a minion player has access to an Under-deeps site cards, but the rule is still in force.
Anyway "you must be able to provide your opponent with a copy" is not the same as "you must provide it for him".
The former excludes an interpretation "you must if you can", the latter does not.
According the interpretation a hero opponent of FW player is not helpless against such strategy.
What is a purpose of the rule I can only suspect.CRF, Tournaments, Great Secrets Buried There wrote:If you play this card as a hazard on your opponent, you must be able to provide your
opponent with a copy of any uncommon Under-deeps sites if he does not have a copy
in his location deck.
If you give an Under-deeps site to your opponent, it will return to your location deck
when he is done with it, unless you have also used the site, in which case it returns to
your discard pile.
Until Against The Shadow a minion player did not have access to an Under-deeps site cards. Sending a company to a site for which he does not have (because cannot have) card in Location Deck in order to playing an item associated with Great Secrets Buried There could look to ICE as too big challenge. Of course a minion player could use Voices of Malice.
Since Against The Shadow a minion player has access to an Under-deeps site cards, but the rule is still in force.
Anyway "you must be able to provide your opponent with a copy" is not the same as "you must provide it for him".
The former excludes an interpretation "you must if you can", the latter does not.
According the interpretation a hero opponent of FW player is not helpless against such strategy.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
The problem is that this is in the deck construction and pre-game setup, and not intended for in game terminology, rather pre-game. BECAUSE, if you take your line for face value:the Jabberwock wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:32 pm I'm sure there are many more scenarios which would fall under this umbrella topic, but here are two specific ones:
First Scenario
I play Echoes of the Song on my opponent and he chooses to discard Thrall of the Voice which is played with Legolas.
Legolas now reverts back to his original 6 mind attribute. The White Hand rules book states:
"... you may only use a character if his mind attribute is 5 or less."
So what does "use" mean? What now happens to Legolas? Can he move? Can he face strikes? Does he still count for Marshaling Points?
CHARACTERS
You may use both hero and minion characters. However, you may only use a character if his mind attribute is 5 or less. All of your non-Orc/Troll characters are considered to be hero characters. You may only use up to two of each non-unique character.
You can NEVER USE a character with mind >5 at all, NEVER. (6, 7, etc)
But I believe their usage of the word use is: (may only use = may only bring into play)
They forgot to include the exception like they did for Bad Company, and I believe this has been discussed on the Forum about Thrall of the Voice and Open to the Summons. But the rulebook needs clarification, such as:
... unless you intend to include an appropriate card (e.g. Thall of the Voice).
But later on it says:
You may not start or bring into play any character with a mind greater than 5.
Why not just leave it USE? I think they tried to clarify here, in the getting ready to play section.
And then mentions, see (Orcs Troll section which talks about apporpriate stage cards)
In this ruling, [NetRep] Rulings Digest #41
He doesn't mention any penalty for the character after discarding Thrall:
But then another example of BAD WORDING (if twisting the word USE), is this:Am I allowed to discard a Thrall of the Voice on a 6-mind character
during my organization phase (to lower my SP in the face of looming badness), or would that be considered "playing" a 6-minder?
*** The character is already in play, so as long as you are not
otherwise restricted from discarding Thrall of the Voice, you may do so
in this case.
SPECIAL ORC & TROLL RULES
A Fallen-wizard’s overt companies must use hero sites for Shadow-holds, Dark-holds, and minion Darkhavens. They must use minion sites for Border-holds, Free-holds, and hero Havens.
Then the card Great Ruse, has no effect:
Playable during the site phase on a Shadow-hold [S] or Dark-hold [D] hero site if you have an overt company there. Replace the hero site card with the corresponding minion site card.
So you can replace the site with the Minion version, but you still CAN'T USE the Site.
---===---
Moral of story here is:
Try not to "ABUSE" the usage of the word "USE", or construe it for rulings debates because it's a weak word to lean on or frail in overall game rulings, depending on which section it is in the rulebooks etc... unless A CARD AT THAT time is enforcing it...
USE the word USE carefully, and if cards overide the claims of the word USE, then that BOND is broken.
Because like I said, if you take the initial STATEMENT about: "you may only use a character if his mind attribute is 5 or less"
Then they can NEVER USE, or ONLY USE characters with 5 or less. Which we know for simplicity sake, is false, WE CAN USE MIND 6, then so it is false and has been ANNULLED, or in the least case, this phrase ONLY USE has been loosened, or weakend by actual cards.
Laters...
As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
https://cardnum.net/rules
If you have other collected rulings that are not
listed please feel free to email them or PM me...
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
https://cardnum.net/rules
If you have other collected rulings that are not
listed please feel free to email them or PM me...
Here is the main thing tho: CARDS BREAK THE RULES ALL THE TIME
So for instance:
Cram
Discard to untap bearer. Alternatively, discard during the organization phase to allow its bearer's company to play an additional region card.
You can't USE, Cram unless it's IN-PLAY.
Then once it's IN-PLAY, you may USE CRAM.
So therefore, in general, being IN-PLAY, qualifies for inference, to basically saying you may now USE such cards.
i.e. if IN-PLAY you get to USE a card...(although this does not count for Short-events)
otherwise, unless stated on a card, like Will Shaken, where it specifially states: THIS CARD CANNOT BE PLAYED.
so a PRE-GAME reference, yes, you can USE this card, pre-game, i.e. put it in your deck. Then USE changes DURING the game.
Once again, if Character is IN-PLAY (somehow, thrall ), you can still USE that character because somehow it found it's way IN-PLAY...
Just like if you took another players' Aragorn II as prisoner. You are now using his card... etc etc blah blah...
don't get things too twisted... the word USE is EVERYWHERE and you could go off the deep-end...
So for instance:
Cram
Discard to untap bearer. Alternatively, discard during the organization phase to allow its bearer's company to play an additional region card.
You can't USE, Cram unless it's IN-PLAY.
Then once it's IN-PLAY, you may USE CRAM.
So therefore, in general, being IN-PLAY, qualifies for inference, to basically saying you may now USE such cards.
i.e. if IN-PLAY you get to USE a card...(although this does not count for Short-events)
otherwise, unless stated on a card, like Will Shaken, where it specifially states: THIS CARD CANNOT BE PLAYED.
so a PRE-GAME reference, yes, you can USE this card, pre-game, i.e. put it in your deck. Then USE changes DURING the game.
Once again, if Character is IN-PLAY (somehow, thrall ), you can still USE that character because somehow it found it's way IN-PLAY...
Just like if you took another players' Aragorn II as prisoner. You are now using his card... etc etc blah blah...
don't get things too twisted... the word USE is EVERYWHERE and you could go off the deep-end...
As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
https://cardnum.net/rules
If you have other collected rulings that are not
listed please feel free to email them or PM me...
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
https://cardnum.net/rules
If you have other collected rulings that are not
listed please feel free to email them or PM me...
- Konrad Klar
- Rules Wizard
- Posts: 4352
- Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
- Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
I would say: (you may only use = you may only bring into play under your control)
Ride Against the Enemy brings a character into play (at short time) but not under control of player.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
rezwits: the rules are written to allow cards to overrule the default rules. Cards don't break the rules. They are specifying exceptions to the default rules.
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This is the first I've considered "You may only use up to two of each non-unique character" to mean that you might be allowed to have three in your deck as long as you never bring more than two into play at one time... seems not intended.
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This is the first I've considered "You may only use up to two of each non-unique character" to mean that you might be allowed to have three in your deck as long as you never bring more than two into play at one time... seems not intended.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
True in indeed. That's why I was saying that section in the pdf (MEWH) was more just "warming up" guidelines for building your deck. Where as when gameplay happens, you're gonna have cards that say you can do something that bypasses the "pre-game" announcements (rare but does happen)...Theo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:14 am rezwits: the rules are written to allow cards to overrule the default rules. Cards don't break the rules. They are specifying exceptions to the default rules.
---
This is the first I've considered "You may only use up to two of each non-unique character" to mean that you might be allowed to have three in your deck as long as you never bring more than two into play at one time... seems not intended.
As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
https://cardnum.net/rules
If you have other collected rulings that are not
listed please feel free to email them or PM me...
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
https://cardnum.net/rules
If you have other collected rulings that are not
listed please feel free to email them or PM me...
True indeed again... Jabberwock and I have talked about the word USE, and he is correct in saying that word is, I think he said, "ambiguous", which I agree now, whole heartedly. Because depending on where you are at in the WHOLE process of:Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:23 amI would say: (you may only use = you may only bring into play under your control)
Ride Against the Enemy brings a character into play (at short time) but not under control of player.
Buying cards, opening packs, using sleeves, reading the rules (which is a...), making decks, drafting characters, shuffling your deck, and eventually playing your 1st turn, there are quite a few things to consider.
As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
https://cardnum.net/rules
If you have other collected rulings that are not
listed please feel free to email them or PM me...
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
https://cardnum.net/rules
If you have other collected rulings that are not
listed please feel free to email them or PM me...
- the JabberwocK
- Ex Council Chairman
- Posts: 1156
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am
Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:43 pmHidden Haven can't satisfy Echoes.Discard this card when the site is discarded or returned to its location deck. It cannot be discarded otherwise.
Apparently Van Norton also missed this.
RULING DIGEST 585
I played Hidden Haven and Guarded Haven to change a site to a Protected Fallen Wizard Haven. Now I have to discard a Stage card, because of playing Echoes of the Songs. When I removed Hidden Haven, is the site still a Protected Fallen Wizard Haven ?
The site is protected, but it is no longer a Wizard Haven. Guarded Haven only provides protection. Hidden Haven only provides the Wizard Haven. You can remove either card but you lose it's effect.
- Bandobras Took
- Rules Wizard
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Didn't he overturn that in a later digest?
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
- the JabberwocK
- Ex Council Chairman
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- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am
I don't believe so, as I just went back through all of the ICE Digests (Van rulings) yesterday and do not see anywhere that he over-turned it. Unless there are digests other than #s 579-588 that I am unaware of.
Interestingly, Van's reply that I quoted above doesn't "seem" like he is over-ruling the text of Hidden Haven. His response reads to me like he simply over-looked that sentence himself - "It cannot be discarded otherwise."
At least there is:
CoE 24 wrote:I found a ruling that I feel is wrong it is in Ruling Digest 585 ad it goes as
follows:
"I played Hidden Haven and Guarded Haven to change a site to a Protected
Fallen Wizard Haven. Now I have to discard a Stage card, because of playing
Echoes of the Songs. When I removed Hidden Haven, is the site still a
Protected Fallen Wizard Haven ?
The site is protected, but it is no longer a Wizard Haven. Guarded Haven
only provides protection. Hidden Haven only provides the Wizard Haven. You
can remove either card but you lose it's effect."
I was under the impression that Hidden Haven cannot be removed unless your
companies move from the site. Here are the card's text:
Hidden Haven
Permanent-event - C4
MP: 0 - Corruption: 0
SP: 1. Playable on a non-Dragon's lair Ruins & Lairs in a
Wilderness, Border- land, or Shadow-land ; the site must normally be a Ruins
& Lairs. This site becomes one of your Wizardhavens and loses all
automatic-attacks. Nothing is considered playable as written on the site
card. If one of your companies is at this site, all attacks against it are
canceled. Other Fallen-wizards may not use this site as a Wizardhaven.
Discard this card when the site is discarded or returned to its location
deck. It cannot be discarded otherwise.
*** This ruling is incorrect. As per the text on Hidden Haven, it cannot be
removed by
Echoes of the Song."
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
- the JabberwocK
- Ex Council Chairman
- Posts: 1156
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am
Thanks Theo.
So Van's ruling was over-turned by a later NetRep. Good to have this clarification.
So Van's ruling was over-turned by a later NetRep. Good to have this clarification.
I have a question about FW site usage and I it's sort of related to this discussion.
Situation - A fallen wizard player moves an OVERT company including an Orc and a Man to a or site. Since the company is overt, they must use the MINION version of the / instead of using the hero sites per MEWH rules.
Question - If the company splits such that the Orc moves away from the / and the Man character stays there, does the Man still use the MINION version of the card or would the card somehow be changed into the HERO version?
Situation - A fallen wizard player moves an OVERT company including an Orc and a Man to a or site. Since the company is overt, they must use the MINION version of the / instead of using the hero sites per MEWH rules.
Question - If the company splits such that the Orc moves away from the / and the Man character stays there, does the Man still use the MINION version of the card or would the card somehow be changed into the HERO version?
- Bandobras Took
- Rules Wizard
- Posts: 3109
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm
The play of certain cards can change the type of sites that your companies may use (e.g. Plotting Ruin, Heart Grown Cold, etc.). When this happens, immediately exchange any affected site cards already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type.
If a company is not overt, they must use hero sites. This change happens immediately, so far as I know. Interestingly enough, if the first automatic-attack at a site results in a company becoming non-overt, and the site is replaced, there will be no more attacks to face.A fallen-wizard's non-overt companies must use hero sites for sites that are not Ruins & Lairs.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.