Council of Elrond

If a character with this text has his body increased, such as with Black-hide Shield, does the text remain as written, or does it increase as well? For example, Orc Sniffler has a body of 8 and the text "Discard on a body check of 7 or 8." If his body is increased to 9, does that become "8 or 9," or does it stay at "7 or 8"?

CRF, Rulings by Term, Body Check" wrote:Effects that modify a character's body also modify the number an Orc or Troll would
be discarded on. A maximum to body applies equally to the discard number.

If an Orc or Troll could be discarded and eliminated by a result, discard them instead
of eliminating them.

Black-hide Shield states that it gives +1 body to maximum 9.

As I understand the CRF rule, the maximum to body is an additional discard number. Otherwise I do not see a sense of its last sentence.

In your scenario the discard numbers are 7, 8, 9, regardless of actual body of Orc Sniffler.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:20 pm

CRF, Rulings by Term, Body Check" wrote:Effects that modify a character's body also modify the number an Orc or Troll would
be discarded on. A maximum to body applies equally to the discard number.

Black-hide Shield states that it gives +1 body to maximum 9.

As I understand the CRF rule, the maximum to body is an additional discard number. Otherwise I do not see a sense of its last sentence.

In your scenario the discard numbers are 7, 8, 9, regardless of actual body of Orc Sniffler.

The CRF ruling seems pretty straightforward. The Black-hide Shield adds +1 body (so Orc Sniffler is now 9 body) and also adds +1 to the discard numbers (so Orc Sniffler now discarded on 8 or 9, eliminated on 10+). The maximum to body simply means that the +1 to discard number doesn't apply beyond the maximum (which has no effect on Orc-sniffler in this case). To give an example where it does matter, consider Black-hide Shield on Buthrakaur, who already has 9 body and is discarded on a roll of 9. Black-hide shield cannot apply its +1 to the body or to the discard number of Buthrakaur, so his body remains at 9 and he is still discarded on a 9 roll. If the second line of the CRF were not specified, then it could be interpreted instead that Buthrakaur would remain at 9 body, but be discarded on a roll of 10, not 9.

If an Orc or Troll could be discarded and eliminated by a result, discard them instead
of eliminating them.

How about the rule? In which situation it is applicable, according to your interpretation?

Ah, I misread that the first time around. That is a strange line, as I don't see how it would be possible for that to happen if both the discard values and the body increase at the same time. Perhaps they were simply hedging their bets?

I agree with Kjeld that the discard numbers would increase (go from 7 & 8 up to 8 & 9, etc) and they would not simply add an extra number to discard on (7, 8 and 9).

And I think this is just nonsense:

If an Orc or Troll could be discarded and eliminated by a result, discard them instead of eliminating them.

With this statement:

A maximum to body applies equally to the discard number.

... you never have a situation where the discard # is greater than the body attribute. So in what scenario under either interpretation of the CRF could you have a character both eliminated and discarded at the same time?

Are there perhaps other cards in the game that eliminate a character when you roll equal to their body attribute?

the Jabberwock wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:34 am And I think this is just nonsense:

If an Orc or Troll could be discarded and eliminated by a result, discard them instead of eliminating them.

The nonsense is greater than you think. By that, Pallando the Soul-keeper is ineffective against the Orc/Troll body check roll.

Not true.

Minion character eliminated by effect of Pallando the Soul-keeper, is not eliminated in result of body check. He is eliminated due to conjunction of Pallando the Soul-keeper's effect and fact of being discarded from play (regardless of reason for which caused the discarding).

Similarly an item possessed by character discarded in result of body check is discarded not in result of body check. It is discarded because the character leaves active play.

Pallando replaces the normal result of the body check, but it is still the result of the body check, so far as I know.

Effect of Pallando the Soul-keeper replaces normal result of discarding from play a minion (non-Ringwraith) character.
If result of a body check would not be a discarding, then Pallando the Soul-keeper would have nothing to do; Pallando the Soul-keeper would remain in play.

That's indisputable. Pallando would also cause the elimination of a minion that would otherwise be discarded as a result of a successful influence check, but the elimination is still the result of a successful influence check.

Pallando alters results, but does not impact the original source of a discard action.

Result of an action must be "discard" to enable the Pallando the Soul-keeper's altering effect.
If result of body check indicates both "discard" and "eliminate" then after Pallando the Soul-keeper it is "eliminate" and "eliminate".

That makes sense.

the Jabberwock wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:34 am And I think this is just nonsense:

If an Orc or Troll could be discarded and eliminated by a result, discard them instead of eliminating them.

With this statement:

A maximum to body applies equally to the discard number.

... you never have a situation where the discard # is greater than the body attribute. So in what scenario under either interpretation of the CRF could you have a character both eliminated and discarded at the same time?

Are there perhaps other cards in the game that eliminate a character when you roll equal to their body attribute?

The "discard them instead of eliminating them" existed before the rule about applying equally to the discard number. It made sense originally, but was never removed.