Council of Elrond

I'm wondering about how cards that specify additional playability of hazard creatures based on keyability of those creatures interact with creatures that specify playability in their text.

---

Example #1: Can Agburanar be played keyed to Rhudaur if both Angmar Arises and Doors of Night is in play because Grey Mountain Narrows is a Shadow-land?

Angmar Arises includes: "Any creature that can be keyed to a Shadow‐land [ ] may be keyed to Forochel, Arthedain, Angmar, Gundabad, or Rhudaur."

Agburanar includes: "If Doors of Night is in play, may also be played keyed to Grey Mountain Narrows, Iron Hills, Northern Rhovanion, and Withered Heath; and may also be played at sites in these regions."

---

Example #2: Can Giant Spiders be played as the second automatic-attack at the Gem-deeps because it can be played at Sarn Goriwing which is a Shadow-hold?

The Gem-deeps includes: "Opponent may play as an automatic‐attack one non‐unique hazard creature from his hand normally keyed to a Shadow‐hold [ ].

Giant Spiders includes: "May also be played keyed to Heart of Mirkwood, Southern Mirkwood, Western Mirkwood, and Woodland Realm; and may also be played at Ruins & Lairs [ ], Shadow‐holds [ ], and Dark‐holds [ ] in these regions.

---

Example #3: Can Morgul-rats be played as the second automatic-attack at the Gem-deeps? Does the wounded/DoN requirement matter or is this bypassed by the alternative playability through the Gem-deeps mechanic?

Morgul-rats includes: "Only playable at a Shadow-hold [ ] or at a Dark-hold [ ], and only if a character in target company is wounded or Doors of Nights is in play."

Agburanar cannot be played keyed to Rhudaur, even if both Angmar Arises and Doors of Night are in play.
Agburanar keyed to Grey Mountain Narrows is not the same as Agburanar keyed to .
After all Grey Mountain Narrows region type may change to other region type, even between declaration and resolution of Agburanar and it will not fizzle it. And player cannot even declare that he is playing the Agburanar to .

If it comes to other examples: a creatures that may be keyed to a given site type or a region type under additional conditions are ultimately keyed to the given site type or the region type.
I think that nothing but errata would prevent a playing them as second AA at under-deep sites.

Sounds good to me.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:29 am Agburanar keyed to Grey Mountain Narrows is not the same as Agburanar keyed to .

I suppose I was uncertain because of the precedent set by detainment attack determination, where keying to a region by name *is* treated as keying to the region's symbol. But I haven't seen anything that suggests this applies more generally beyond detainment determination.

Actually, just found this again, removing all doubt:

MELE p47 wrote:Note: A creature played keyed to a specific region by name is not keyed to the specific region's type.

To expand upon the original question, many Under-deeps site have text that allows for specific creatures to be played to the site; The Under-vaults, for example, says "Special: Any Undead creature may also be played at this site." Does that apply to the second automatic-attack as well (that is, you can select an Undead for the second attack even if it's not keyed to a Shadow-hold), or only does it just mean that you can play said Undead creatures during the Movement/Hazard phase even if they're not keyed to that Under-deep's site type?

Under the "'play' means ignore all the normal rules for play" bandwagon, I think this means you can attack yourself with your own undead hazards for easy trophies. Those Wisps of Pale Sheen sure have a nice... sheen.

I'm joking. Only sort of though.

Otherwise, the second automatic attacks do use the "play" language, so I don't see why they wouldn't be affected by their own Special.

CCG Collector wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:59 am To expand upon the original question, many Under-deeps site have text that allows for specific creatures to be played to the site; The Under-vaults, for example, says "Special: Any Undead creature may also be played at this site." Does that apply to the second automatic-attack as well (that is, you can select an Undead for the second attack even if it's not keyed to a Shadow-hold), or only does it just mean that you can play said Undead creatures during the Movement/Hazard phase even if they're not keyed to that Under-deep's site type?

It means that you can play said Undead creatures during the Movement/Hazard phase even if they're not keyed to that Under-deep's site type and that you may reveal them (if placed on guard) when opponent's company enters the site.
Automatic-attacks are not an attacks keyed to site.

I see how that would be consistent with wording that meant, "Undead creatures gain the phrase, 'May also be played at [Under-vaults].'" There are specific rules about how creatures specify their ability to be played through normal hazard creature play mechanics. There would be nothing about that phrase that suggests it would work with the second automatic-attack alternative play.

But the wording of the Special is not as specific as that, so nothing suggests that the Special does not apply to the second automatic-attack play as well. This would be consistent with wording that meant, "Rules that specify how to play types of cards at [Under-vaults] gain the phrase, 'Undead may also be one of those types.'" This seems to me to align more with what is literally written.

Creatures played as AA are not creatures played at a site, or keyed to a site (that is the same).
AAs of The Under-vaults may be copied by Tidings of Bold Spies and faced by a moving company under effect of Secret Entrance.