Council of Elrond

The Dark Power wrote:Playable only if you are Sauron. +3 to an influence check against a faction. If the check is not successful, shuffle the faction into your play deck. 'But don't forget the enemies don't love us any more than they love Him, and if they get topsides on Him, we're done too.'-LotRIV

If influence check is made against an opponent's faction AND Sauron player does not reveal his own copy/manifestation AND the check is not successful, the opponent's faction is shuffled into Sauron player's deck.

Correct?

Oooh. Ouch. According to the logic in the rules thread, you aren't influencing your own faction if you reveal it when influencing an opponent's faction, so it doesn't matter whether you reveal a faction or not.

However, I think shuffling a card into the play deck is an action, which would mean the card is targeted. You can't target opponent's resources with your own resources.

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:17 pm You can't target opponent's resources with your own resources.

Yes.
Only target of The Dark Power is an in influence check against a faction.
"shuffle the faction into your play deck" will happen or not will happen depending on the result of the influence check.
Therefore it is not an action declared at declaration of The Dark Power. Therefore the faction is not target of The Dark Power.

P.S.
The same logic is backing Treason the Greatest Foe. Hero (and potentially opponent's) character is condition of The Dark Power, may be discarded in result of The Dark Power, but is not a target of The Dark Power.

I think actions conditional on the result of a dice roll can be declared, can't they?

Scout only against an Orc, Troll, Man, Elf, Slayer, Awakened Plant, or Giant attack against his company. Make a roll (or draw a #); if the result is greater than 5, the attack is cancelled.

Is canceling an attack not declared here?

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:28 pm

The Dark Power wrote:Playable only if you are Sauron. +3 to an influence check against a faction. If the check is not successful, shuffle the faction into your play deck. 'But don't forget the enemies don't love us any more than they love Him, and if they get topsides on Him, we're done too.'-LotRIV

If influence check is made against an opponent's faction AND Sauron player does not reveal his own copy/manifestation AND the check is not successful, the opponent's faction is shuffled into Sauron player's deck.

Correct?

You guys fantasize too much.
While a lot of cards might need clarification, I think here all is quite simple. Any other case when you put your opponent cards into your play deck?
During faction attempts the faction is discarded if the attempt is unsucessful. Here you shuffle it into your play deck instead, thus gaining another attempt.
You just try playing with words. No need to create a wheel again, I guess.

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:27 am I think actions conditional on the result of a dice roll can be declared, can't they?

Scout only against an Orc, Troll, Man, Elf, Slayer, Awakened Plant, or Giant attack against his company. Make a roll (or draw a #); if the result is greater than 5, the attack is cancelled.

Is canceling an attack not declared here?

Is not declared here.
Still attack is target of the card.
Similarly, a tapping/discarding/eliminating is not declared at declaration of corruption check.

Yegor wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:57 am

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:28 pm

The Dark Power wrote:Playable only if you are Sauron. +3 to an influence check against a faction. If the check is not successful, shuffle the faction into your play deck. 'But don't forget the enemies don't love us any more than they love Him, and if they get topsides on Him, we're done too.'-LotRIV

If influence check is made against an opponent's faction AND Sauron player does not reveal his own copy/manifestation AND the check is not successful, the opponent's faction is shuffled into Sauron player's deck.

Correct?

You guys fantasize too much.
While a lot of cards might need clarification, I think here all is quite simple. Any other case when you put your opponent cards into your play deck?
During faction attempts the faction is discarded if the attempt is unsucessful. Here you shuffle it into your play deck instead, thus gaining another attempt.
You just try playing with words. No need to create a wheel again, I guess.

No need to create a wheel again, but there is a need to know, how particular wheel is working in particular mechanism.
And whether there is chance/risk of other uses or abuses of the wheel.

There is other case when you can place an opponent's card into your play deck, albeit indirectly (in first step you must return the card to your hand) - Returned Beyond All Hope (in second use).

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:00 am There is other case when you can place an opponent's card into your play deck, albeit indirectly (in first step you must return the card to your hand) - Returned Beyond All Hope (in second use).

"Alternatively, make a roll - if the result is greater than 8, bring an eliminated Elf or Maia creature to its owners discard pile and place this card in your opponent's MP pile for 2 MP."

RBAH is placed in the opponent's MP pile, not play deck.

If you mean this: "Alternatively, bring a Maia permanent-event from play to your hand", I still think that this is your card, not opponent's.

Yegor wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:22 pm If you mean this: "Alternatively, bring a Maia permanent-event from play to your hand", I still think that this is your card, not opponent's.

I mean "Alternatively, bring a Maia permanent-event from play to your hand"*. I do not know a rule that would forbid a taking of opponent's card to my hand.
The fact that almost nothing causes such effect does not mean that such rule exists.

*) "Alternatively, as a short-event bring a Maia permanent-event from active play to your hand." after recent errata.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:04 pm I mean "Alternatively, bring a Maia permanent-event from play to your hand"*. I do not know a rule that would forbid a taking of opponent's card to my hand.
The fact that almost nothing causes such effect does not mean that such rule exists.

And how do you imagine this? Taking other player's cards? I think common sense is enough in this matter. Both cards (RBAH and TDP) affect your own cards.

Yegor wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:45 pm And how do you imagine this? Taking other player's cards?

Just in this way.

Yegor wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:45 pm I think common sense is enough in this matter. Both cards (RBAH and TDP) affect your own cards.

If a common sense (whose sense?) would be enough then a things like clarification for Palantír of Orthanc would not be needed.

CRF, Errata (Cards), Palantír of Orthanc wrote:Cannot be used on site cards. Card Erratum: This item does not give MPs to a Fallen-
Wizard regardless of other cards in play.

Underline mine.

A common sense (my flavor of) was necessary to open this thread. Otherwise I would walk around the text of The Dark Power lukewarmly.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
Just in this way.

That's no answer. Give me, please, any other card that let's you take your opponent cards into hand or shuffle them in your play deck. I don't think there is such a card (recent errata or dream cards are out of question). So this is just play on words.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pmIf a common sense (whose sense?) would be enough then a things like clarification for Palantír of Orthanc would not be needed.

CRF, Errata (Cards), Palantír of Orthanc wrote:Cannot be used on site cards. Card Erratum: This item does not give MPs to a Fallen-
Wizard regardless of other cards in play.

Underline mine.[/quote]

What is there to clarify in PoO? Sites are not shuffled into play deck. No need for this clarification.

The game is complex enough. I think there is no need to make it even more complex with misleading suggestions.

Yegor wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:30 pmWhat is there to clarify in PoO? Sites are not shuffled into play deck. No need for this clarification.

The game is complex enough. I think there is no need to make it even more complex with misleading suggestions.

The funniest part was that you just issued a clarification: sites are not shuffled into the play deck.

The whole reason for clarifications is because of the game's complexity.

Yegor wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:30 pm Konrad Klar wrote: ↑
05 Jan 2019, 15:57

Just in this way.

That's no answer.

If a question was not: "And how do you imagine this? Taking other player's cards?", then right.

Yegor wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:30 pm Give me, please, any other card that let's you take your opponent cards into hand or shuffle them in your play deck. I don't think there is such a card (recent errata or dream cards are out of question). So this is just play on words.

I do not know.
Also I do not know any other than Parsimony of Seclusion and From the Pits of Angband hazards that allow to search for faction (and return it to hand).
I do not know any other card than Long Grievous Siege that takes a site card "off to the side".

Yegor wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:30 pm What is there to clarify in PoO? Sites are not shuffled into play deck. No need for this clarification.

Without the clarification someone could take into hand a site card. For any reason (to provoke an opponent to play Aware of their Ways, or to provoke him to play The Riddle Game).

Yegor wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:30 pm The game is complex enough. I think there is no need to make it even more complex with misleading suggestions.

Say the same to your opponent during game, when he will try to perform some unusual action, and you will not be able to find a rule that would forbid a performing the action.

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:48 pm The funniest part was that you just issued a clarification: sites are not shuffled into the play deck.

That's not clarification, but the common sense I've been referring to. The sites are not put into play deck. So what is there to clarify?

At the same time the second part of the "clarification", the one on FW not receiveing MPs, does need some clarification. Is it because Isengard is a FWH?

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:48 pmThe whole reason for clarifications is because of the game's complexity.

The first post does not look like clarification. It's more of a statment thing to me.