Council of Elrond

I want to preface this conversation with:

I know MECCG is not Magic, all I am saying is it's similar.
This conversation is similar in my eyes to Mono Red versus Mono Blue:
Lightning Bolt, Fork, Counterspell.

Here goes!

It's my opponent's turn and I am the Hazard Player.
It's the M/H phase with a Hazard Limit of 5.

I announce Ambusher (Creature), (a Chain of Effects has been created)

I ask my opponent Cancel? or Cancelling the Attack?

He responds NO, It's good.

AT THIS POINT = The Chain of Effects (that Ambusher created) ENDS, and Ambusher is resolved.

Correct? (Think of this in the most BRUTAL CRITICAL Tournament Sense, i.e NO TAKE BACKS!)

Real simple, I announce Ambusher, I ask for Cancel he says no (I got nothing), that's that? Resolved right?
n.b. most brutal sense remember, meaning: 2 minutes later, while I am getting a drink, he goes, WAIT WAIT, I want to cancel.

My impression is that the complete order should be something like:

• You announce Ambusher card
• opponent gets a chance to respond
• you get a chance to respond
• (alternate additional chances to respond if either responded until both players don't respond in succession)
• Ambusher card resolves (assuming it still can) and card effect creates an attack
• opponent gets a chance to respond
• you get a chance to respond
• (additional chances to respond if either responded until both players don't respond in succession)
• Strikes are assigned (assuming attack wasn't canceled)

As far as I know, an opponent that initially passes their chance to respond is not entitled to another chance to respond to the same thing if you don't respond yourself; i.e. a lack of action does not create more chances to respond, and resolution of a chain only necessitates giving your opponent one chance per new action.

What Theo wrote is correct.

rez - The error in your thinking is that the Ambusher resolves after the opponent has had a chance to cancel the attack. That is not the case. The Ambusher cannot be targeted to cancel until after it has resolved (unless your opponent manages to reduce the H/L or something to make the attack fizzle). So once the Chain of Effects created by the Ambusher resolves and the Ambusher attack is created, then the Resource player may attempt to cancel it.

Note: There is time for multiple actions to take place between the time the Ambusher successfully resolves and the strike sequence begins. Thus, the Hazard player could tap Hoarmurath to add a strike, play Mouth of Sauron to recycle Hoarmurath, then tap Hoarmurath a second time to create a second additional strike. Likewise, the Resource player could announce Concealment to cancel the attack, Hazard player cancels Concealment with Many Sorrows Befall, then Resource player could announce a second Concealment (tapping a new scout), etc.

OK, second try:

When does the opportunity to cancel the attack end?

That's as clear as I can get...

At the "strikes are assigned" point.

CRF wrote:Annotation 13: An attack may not be canceled once its strikes have been assigned. A strike may not be canceled once the dice-roll for the strike has been made.

In terms of your original question:

rezwits wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:54 am Real simple, I announce Ambusher, I ask for Cancel he says no (I got nothing), that's that? Resolved right?

Assuming we're talking about the attack from Ambusher having started a new chain of effects (not the original card play), "that's that" if you additionally say you have nothing. If you declare some new action, he can opt to cancel in response.

But yeah, obviously in the strictest sense you shouldn't be able to change an action once declared verbally. It would undermine the very notion of declaring actions. But lack of an action is not an action. If you left for a drink before saying you also had no action to declare and were resolving, I would say it is still within the window of opportunity for "either player to declare actions". You are only required to give opponent one opportunity, but if you walk away they have as many opportunities as they want until you say it resolves.

I guess the terminolgy is wrong here, from my reading "Resolved" for a Creature/Attack means in a sense concluded (but, one could say there are two things that have to "Resolve"; The Creature card, resolves, creating the attack, then the Attack has to resolve) after being faced. Because I think when someone announces:

"Ambusher 2@10"
"Do you cancel?"
and they say:
"Nope it's good"
then I can annouce:
"Card Resolved, Attack Created"

Then the attack is "Created" not resolved (the only reason for this notion is from my reading of Fury of the Iron Crown.

Oh and btw, my going and getting a DRINK, was:

Ambusher, cancel or create? Think it over for the next two minutes while I get a drink, I'll have NO RESPONSE to your answer (I want a final answer), DO YOU CANCEL?

n.b. remember no biased. let's get things right here...

Theo wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:16 am My impression is that the complete order should be something like:

• 1. You announce Ambusher card
• 2. opponent gets a chance to respond
• 3. you get a chance to respond
• 4. (alternate additional chances to respond if either responded until both players don't respond in succession)
• 5. Ambusher card resolves (assuming it still can) and card effect creates an attack
• 6. opponent gets a chance to respond
• 7. you get a chance to respond
• 8. (additional chances to respond if either responded until both players don't respond in succession)
• 9. Strikes are assigned (assuming attack wasn't canceled)

As far as I know, an opponent that initially passes their chance to respond is not entitled to another chance to respond to the same thing if you don't respond yourself; i.e. a lack of action does not create more chances to respond, and resolution of a chain only necessitates giving your opponent one chance per new action.

OK Theo, I am 100% on board with this line of reasoning, but let's go slow...

After line 5 the attack is created.
What are lines 6-8, these are opportunities to modify the attack, correct?
But during these steps, there is no longer a chance to cancel, correct?

We'll get there...

Steps 6-8 are the only time the resource player can cancel the attack. Until step 5 has completed, there is no attack to cancel.

Many Turns and Doublings (played with Gates of Morning to reduce the hazard limit) could be used prior to step 5 to potentially cause Ambusher to fizzle, but you need to let the card resolve and take effect before you could play something like Concealment.

oh shizzle,

I was thinking something like that so then the following line of PROPER ANNOUNCEMENT ETIQUETTE is:

Ambusher, fizzle? cancel?

Ambusher
Fizzle? No.
2 strikes @ 10/-
Cancel? No. (and/or HOARM etc) back and forth bounce flip etc
Assign strikes
Cancel any strikes? No. (and/or Fury of the Iron Crown, Pierced, etc) back and forth bounce flip etc

NOW we go back to the OG Magic relation.
BOLT FORK COUNTERSPELL.

What this means is:

If I have Hoarmurath on the table.

I say:

Ambusher
Fizzle? No.
2 strikes @ 10/-
he says NO CANCEL, and I respond "I have NOTHING"
he CANNOT go, oh wait well I want to cancel then...

THIS IS WHERE I AM GOING with this...

---===---
but as an aside note, I guess I was wrongly informed, that if I announce:

Ambusher, (fizzle then) cancel?
and my opponent says NO CANCEL.
and I respond k I am using Hoarmurath, he can then go back and say I WILL CANCEL.

Which before I always used to just say, Ambusher Hoarmurath 3@10.
The guy would say cancel. I was like SHOOT, well that sucks.

But then I was told by a pretty good player, that:

Announce the attack:

Ambusher, and then ASK if he says CANCEL, then use Hoarm (which is still good practice...), but doesn't guarantee 3@10.
---===---
But anyway, (I will use this like fork/counterspell similarity)

Meaning if I have HOARM on the Table,
and he says, no fizzle, no cancel, I AM DONE 2@10, no going back and saying well on 2nd thought I'll cancel then...

Which I can live with! (make Hoarm, only 25% as effective but meh, at least he's not totally useless)

Because my argument would be OH I decline, and let the Chain complete but you want to go back and start the chain again?
Otherwise, if he can go:

(him) No Cancel
(me) No reponse, let's procede
(him) Well I'll Cancel instead.

Then what the HELL is the point? To ANSWERING the Questions?? Fizzle and Cancel??
This seems like a total situation for creating ARGUMENTS.

Unless when he says "cancel" and I say "good" (we procede). I don't like where there are games within games within games etc... that's ridiculous...

I've always found that in practice, most of the time you don't need to worry about this kind of thing. I play Ambusher, you tap a scout and play Concealment, done. Or you don't, I say 'ok, 2@10' and we start figuring out strike assignments.

But every once in a while it's important. And yeah, for something like Hoarmurath, if you choose to use it, it does give your opponent another chance to respond, even if they did nothing when the creature first resolved.

rezwits wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:03 am Then what the HELL is the point? To ANSWERING the Questions?? Fizzle and Cancel??
This seems like a total situation for creating ARGUMENTS.

I do not know too what the HELL is your point, but I'm trying to decipher your post anyway.

A player may declare in response to declaration of action A an action B that is not related to A.
For example in response to declaration of Ambusher, he may declare Smoke Rings.

His motivations are his business.
For rules it only matters, whether his actions are legal.

Zakath wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:38 am I've always found that in practice, most of the time you don't need to worry about this kind of thing. I play Ambusher, you tap a scout and play Concealment, done. Or you don't, I say 'ok, 2@10' and we start figuring out strike assignments.

I have seen it many times, that NO RESPONSE is not expressed (is done silently) and players go straight from declaration of Ambusher to the point when Ambusher is in play and may be potentially canceled.
If at this point Concealment is declared, an observer may be under wrong impression that Concealment has been declared in response to Ambusher.
In similar scenario it may be declaration of Dragon Ahunt and (after silent NO RESPONSE, NO RESPONSE, Dragon Ahunt resolves) Sated Beast, or Marvels Told.

Not fair! not fair! It isn’t fair, my precious, is it, to not respond and then ask us what if it cancels after nassty little Hoarmurathses?

What I am trying to say is:

Communication in combat is useless!!

I don't understand why, if I announce:

Ambusher, cancel?

He can go NO, wait Yes, NO wait, wait yes, No wait No, wait yes, wait NO, wait.....

It's like DUDE:

Ambusher, cancel?

Yes or flippin' No? Can we move along?? (BUT IT'S NOT THIS WAY)

This seems like a flaw, but I guess it's not:

Where someone can say, NO CANCEL, and then 2 minutes can go by and the guy can change his MIND? wtf kinda communication is THIS?

Dude in Chess, you move your piece that's that.

NOT oh wait I want to move here, does that sound good?, no wait, I want to move here whad'a ya think? Tell? Blink?, no wait here no wait, etc etc BS!

Answer the question YES or NO?

I don't care about Hoarm, Fury, or anything!

I want communcation, where as someone can say something and it MEANS what it MEANS.

Why is this so hard to understand??

In a simple case, with MtG, you would go "Lightning bolt, counter?", opponent responds "No.", TAKE YOUR DAMAGE, DONE... gees

MOVE ALONG.

So like in the future like I USED TO:

I will just go:

Ambusher.

And freakin' stare at the guy, and say nothing, don't ask "Cancel" or anything, and then if he says:

Cancel then cancel, or "Assign your strikes" then I'll pick the two guys done.

And if I announce.

Wild Trolls

I'll just wait for him, to start picking his guys, DONE.

But here's the catch, once he says:

1. Assign your strikes (Ambusher style) {or}
2. This guy and this guy (Wild Troll style)

THEN I AM HOLDING HIM to "NO CANCEL" as soon as I pick the 1st character.
If he wants to go oh on 2nd thought I'll cancel, IF, he asked me to pick and I did, TOO BAD.

GEEZUS, NO NEED TO ASK CANCEL IS THE POINT, SOLVED. DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING!!! SOLVED.

Thanks for your time, guys...

rezwits wrote: ↑Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:40 am I don't understand why, if I announce:

Ambusher, cancel?

You cannot announce such thing in MECCG.

1.
You can declare Ambusher (play the Ambusher card).
Then your opponent may declare some action in response, or he may pass.
Then you may declare some action in response or you may pass.

If there are no more declared actions, a declared actions start resolving, in order from last declared to first declared.

2.
Some declared actions may be unable to resolve.
This happens if conditions required to declare them (existing at declaration) do not exist when an action tries to resolve.

E.g. if Ambusher has been keyed to and at resolution of Ambusher there is no , Ambusher cannot resolve.
Ambusher fizzles and this is not the same as canceling of Ambusher.

3.
If Ambusher resolve (i.e. it did not fizzle) he is considered in play and now (not before) it may be canceled or otherwise affected.