Council of Elrond

Perusing old mailings, I found this interesting statement:

Van Norton wrote:Thrall specifically allows you to have a six mind character in the starting company. They are still forbidden in the deck even as agent hazards.

Since this would invalidate both of the Fallen Wizard decks that made it to finals in this year's Worlds, does anyone have a contradicting reference?
I believe that CoE has since ruled that starting cards are considered part of a player's deck, so this statement from Van seems outdated in general.

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The original purpose for my diggings was to understand the rules for Fallen Wizard characters in play that have mind above 5. Bandobras' unified theory postulates that such characters cannot be used for card play, but I haven't seen conclusive evidence from CoE itself. In particular, from Ichabod (underline mind):

Rules Digest 43 wrote: >I seem to remember that previously it was ruled that the part in the FW
>rules that states that a FW player can't "use" mind 6+ characters meant
>that they were discarded if they occurred. Am I mistaken, or has this
>ruling been reversed, or, horror of horrors, is the above a mistake?

I'm not sure if I ever made that ruling, but if so it has been reversed.
"Use" in that context should be read as "bring into play." A FW can
have a six mind character, he just can't play one.

To my reading, this seems to suggest that there are no restrictions on a Fallen Wizard character with more than 5 mind once already in play (nor, for the purpose of Van's statement above, any restrictions against deck use of such characters).

Thoughts?

ICE authors frequently and incorrectly were using interchangeably the terms "is playable" and "may be played".
So why they would not have be using interchangeably the terms "may not be played", "may not be used", "may not be included in deck"?

Lidless Eye, Using MELE with METW, The Cards and Decks, Deck Construction wrote:Only Ringwraith players may include minion characters, resources, and sites in their decks, while only Wizard players may include hero characters, resources, and sites in their decks.

However, there is an exception to this: a Ringwraith player may use any hero item resource card as if it were a minion item resource card. Similarly, a Wizard player may use any minion item resource card as if it were a hero item resource card. The following apply:

All normal requirements must be met to play the item.
All restrictions to movement still apply.
All bonuses and special abilities are ignored.
The item is only worth half (round up) of its normal marshalling points.
The hero version of a unique item is a manifestation of the same minion version of the item and vice versa.

So "using hero item resource card by a Ringwraith player" is considered as exception from "only Wizard players may include hero characters, resources, and sites in their decks."

And while a player may "use" item of opposite alignment, "All bonuses and special abilities are ignored.".

Try to obey it consistently, or make errata.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:58 am So "using hero item resource card by a Ringwraith player" is considered as exception from "only Wizard players may include hero characters, resources, and sites in their decks."

Sure, in that instance. Rules Digest 43 specifically refers to a different instance.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:58 am Try to obey it consistently, or make errata.

Rules Digest 43 is not sufficient about what was meant in that MEWH instance? "'Use' in that context should be read as 'bring into play.'" Seems to both acknowledge that "use" is not being consistently used (contrary to your desire), and how to understand it for >5-mind FW characters.

Ruling cannot replace errata. Someone's statement that "8" should be read as "7" is not proper fix.

I agree with what Theo is saying here. Making characters become "lumps" after they are in play because their mind attribute is raised seems overly destructive to FW players.

CRF - Fallen-wizard wrote: Fallen-wizards may not play characters with more than five mind, but if they have one in play the character is not discarded.
Fallen-wizards can have a character with more than five mind, they just can't start with one or play one.

I think the intent here was to say "Fallen-wizards can have and use a character with more than five mind, they just can't start with one or play one."

I plan to submit this to the 2019 ARV.

Where is the ruling stating a FW player may not include characters or agents with 6 mind or greater in their deck? I do not see this stated in the URD, MEWH insert, or anywhere else.

I am aware of no such explicit rule/ruling. Bandobras' unified theory post (linked above) nicely brings together the relevant rulebooks+CRF. The ambiguity has lain in the word "use", and its overloading among various situations which seem to warrant different meanings. Thus the MEWH rule, "you may only use a character if his mind attribute is 5 or less." has presumably been interpreted at times as "use" including use for deck construction purposes. The Van Norton quote in my original post is probably an example of that. It was not an official communication, but from someone that was an official communicator.

Interesting.

I absolutely agree with this update.

I thought the Unified Theory allowed 6+ mind characters to be included in the deck? Especially since Thrall itself makes it clear that you can play 6-minder in the organization phase.

On this topic, I found a few rulings. One allows 6+ mind agents in the deck (consistent with the Unified Theory). The latter involves discarding Thrall to make a 6-mind character and doesn't mention lumps or non-use (which would be pretty important to mention). Still, this is probably worth defining the FW rules better.


NetRep #50:

Fallen-wizards use minion rules for agents. If Baduila (8 mind) is in my discard pile, I assume I can't use Mouth of Sauron on it, but can I use Weigh all Things to a Nicety even though I can never bring him in play
as a character?
*** That's correct.


NetRep #41:

Am I allowed to discard a Thrall of the Voice on a 6-mind character during my organization phase (to lower my SP in the face of looming badness), or would that be considered "playing" a 6-minder?
*** The character is already in play, so as long as you are not otherwise restricted from discarding Thrall of the Voice, you may do so in this case.

Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk

A predating contradictory ruling.

ICE Netrep Ichabod, 1998-01-22, wrote:>The rules indicate that one cannot 'use' characters with a mind higher
>than 5. Since they can 'use' a character with 6 mind but only bring it
>into play in conjunction with Thrall of the Voice, I'm inclined to take
>the term 'use' to mean 'bring into play'. That is to say, a fallen
>wizard player could put any number of 6 mind characters into his deck
>(with normal restrictions, of course). This leads to the question:
>though they cannot bring high mind characters into play, can they keep
>high mind characters in the deck?

Yes. You can put any characters you want in the deck, just not play
them.

>I'm wondering because when I play, I'm always going against the same
>critical characters. I want to try the Fallen Pallando plan where he
>sits in the White Towers and corrupts the buggers away from afar. Can I
>include an Elrond in my deck to make the corruption easier?

You mean influence attempts? with Prophet of Doom? If so, yes, you
can reveal Elrond to make the influence check easier. However, you
could not play Elrond if the check was successful.

Theo wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 5:13 am A predating contradictory ruling.

ICE Netrep Ichabod, 1998-01-22, wrote:>The rules indicate that one cannot 'use' characters with a mind higher
>than 5. Since they can 'use' a character with 6 mind but only bring it
>into play in conjunction with Thrall of the Voice, I'm inclined to take
>the term 'use' to mean 'bring into play'. That is to say, a fallen
>wizard player could put any number of 6 mind characters into his deck
>(with normal restrictions, of course). This leads to the question:
>though they cannot bring high mind characters into play, can they keep
>high mind characters in the deck?

Yes. You can put any characters you want in the deck, just not play
them.

>I'm wondering because when I play, I'm always going against the same
>critical characters. I want to try the Fallen Pallando plan where he
>sits in the White Towers and corrupts the buggers away from afar. Can I
>include an Elrond in my deck to make the corruption easier?

You mean influence attempts? with Prophet of Doom? If so, yes, you
can reveal Elrond to make the influence check easier. However, you
could not play Elrond if the check was successful.

The Ichabod statements seem pretty clear. Use means play. A card in the deck isnt therefore in play until it is used or played (i.e. place in the game area)? Could also impact a card like "Ride against the enemy", if a FW chose to include Glorfindel in his deck, for example. You could argue that this would otherwise limit the application of this hazard card for a FW player.

Cards that are merely revealed are not in play. Otherwise revealing duplicate during influence attempt would lead to situation where two unique cards are in play.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:19 am Cards that are merely revealed are not in play. Otherwise revealing duplicate during influence attempt would lead to situation where two unique cards are in play.

Yes - this makes sense.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:19 am Cards that are merely revealed are not in play. Otherwise revealing duplicate during influence attempt would lead to situation where two unique cards are in play.

Correction:
Cards that are merely revealed are not in play. Otherwise revealing duplicate during influence attempt would lead to situation where two copies of the same unique card are in play.