A "company" is just a group of characters. That's all. An effect on a group of characters can only affect one group of characters. When a group of characters faces an attack, any subgroups of characters have also faced that same attack.
An "effect" that is "on" a company "
targets" the company. There can only be 1 target of the effect. The rule on resource permanent-events also applies to resource or character effects on a company. Meaning that when a company is split, the resource player chooses which company gets the effect and which doesn't.
On the other hand, a company having "faced an attack" is not an "effect" that targets the company. Having faced an attack is not limited to 1 particular company. So if a company faces an attack and is later split, all resulting companies are considered to have faced the attack regardless of the new companies being different companies.
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Zakath wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:11 pm
If they were long-events (like Wake of War) or permanent-events (like Rank upon Rank), it's settled that they operate by means of passive conditions.
But it seems like creatures can't set up passive conditions, because as the CRF says "A card causing an action as a result of a passive condition must be in play when the action resolves, or else the action is canceled."
The rules on passive conditions do not say this. The rules on passive conditions state what can cause an active as a result of a passive condition but they do not state what cards do not cause actions as a result of a passive condition. It should be clear that this understanding is wrong because some short-events cause actions as a result of a passive condition even though the event is discarded (e.g., Dwar of War short-event, First of the Order, etc.). There is nothing in the rules stating that the bonus effects of Chill Douser and Uruk-lieutenant do not operate using passive condition timing. If anything, the effect of these cards
actually define the passive condition that will trigger the action of giving the bonuses. Since they define a passive condition, they use passive condition timing.
Zakath wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:11 pm
I can't find anything in the rules or CRF explicitly addressing the 'duration' of a hazard creature, so possibly the idea would be that such a creature remains in play until the end of the company's movement-hazard phase (or until the end of the turn) since it has effects beyond simply creating an attack?
The creature leaves play as normal (MP pile, out of play pile, or discard pile). Both Chill Douser and Uruk-lieutenant state that the effect only works for the current turn.
Zakath wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:11 pm
It does seem like there must be some sort of 'memory' associated with the hazard creatures faced in a particular movement-hazard phase, because otherwise creatures like Orc-warband would be non-functional.
The record keeping for the game is not explicitly described but the Designers typically expect the players to only need to remember what has happened in the current turn. There are only a few exceptions, and half of those are from errata.
Zakath wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:11 pm
But I don't know how that allows an effect from an already-resolved and discarded card to be applied to cards played afterward.
The rules state that the effects of permanent and long events only last until the card is discarded. There is no such rule for short-events. The rules state that short-events can have a duration. The effects of creatures are not specifically described but clearly they can have a duration as indicated on these 2 cards.
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Zakath wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:50 pm
Yeah, it seems like that would be a good precedent to look at for this. It would matter for purposes of how Chill Douser interacts with Plague of Wights.
This is covered by Annotation 26. It is the other of playing these effects that matters. The doubling from Plague of Wights would be applied to the attack first, before the effect of Chill Douser, if Plague of Wights was already in play at the start of the M/H phase. If the same company took a second M/H phase, then the doubling from Plague of Wights would happen after the +1 from Chill Douser.
Annotation 26: If at the start of a player's movement/hazard phase, there are multiple effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied, the player who is currently not taking his turn (i.e., the hazard player) decides the order in which they are to be applied. Once this interpretation is established, all further actions are applied in the order they are resolved for the rest of the turn.
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Kjeld wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:27 pm
To give an example scenario. A company of four characters (HL = 4) is moving to the Dead Marshes. The hazard player plays Chill Douser (which is not canceled). Next, the hazard player plays Ghouls, now 6 strikes at 8 prowess, and then plays Left Behind on one of the characters. At this point, there are now two moving companies, of three and one characters.
- Is Chill Douser's bonus to Undead attacks still in effect for both companies, neither company, or just one of the companies if the hazard player plays another Undead creature?
- Will Chill Douser affect the Undead automatic-attack at Dead Marshes if the rejoined company decides to enter the site? Left Behind reads that the split off character now "may rejoin his original company following all movement/hazard phases."
Yes, Chill Douser's effect will affect both companies. This is because both groups of characters (both companies) have faced the attack. This is not an "effect" that can only target 1 company.
Yes, Chill Douser can affect the automatic-attack, and it would in this case.
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Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:26 am
I do not have an evidence, but I'm suspecting that after split a resulting companies inherit a history of an original company.
I do have an evidence. Hazards that rely on whether a company has faced an attack apply to both companies of a split.
But resource/character effects on a split company will only affect 1 company chosen to be the original company, not the new company.
Subject: [MECCG] Rules Digest 113
Date: 1998/07/27
>Lets say I have an Ahunt Dragon out in play. Company moves through one of
>those regions, faces the attack, not defeated. I play some undead with
>THID, attack not defeated, make roll and some of the characters from the
>party split. Since THID states they form there own party and have an
>additional M/H phase limit of one, would they again face the Ahunt Dragon
>alone again?
No. Both companies are considered to have faced the Dragon Ahunt, so
they don't face it again.
Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:26 am
I may have a two characters company with Bilbo and Frodo. Frodo splits of into different company. Is now the Frodo's company considered original, or the Bilbo's company is considered original?
The resource player gets to choose.
Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:26 am
Please note that both Bilbo and Frodo from the mentioned two characters company may be affected by Turning Hope to Despair.
Would it mean that that effect of Chill Douser's attack is gone?
Chill Douser's effect would be applied to both companies of the split.
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Kjeld wrote: ↑Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:48 pm
The ruling seems to only apply to "resource permanent-events". Why be so specific if it was meant to apply more broadly? I don't think this applies to resource short-events (e.g. Secret Entrance), let alone hazard effects like Chill Douser or Uruk-lieutenant.
The rule only mentions permanent-events. But ICE has ruled that this also applies to other resource/character effects on a company. Chill Douser and Uruk-lientenant work differently.
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Zakath wrote: ↑Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:54 pm
Yeah, I don't think it's the case that new companies 'lose' anything - they didn't exist before the action that created them, so they had no history to lose. The character(s) in the new company might have history from earlier in the game, but the new company doesn't.
It might help if we gave companies names. So Alpha Company could set out from Lorien composed of Aragorn, Bilbo, and Sam. Your opponent plays Chill Douser against Alpha Company. For the rest of the turn, Alpha Company is 'the company' that Chill Douser's text refers to. Next your opponent plays Ghouls against Alpha Company, activates a Power Built By Waiting and follows it up by targeting Sam to be Left Behind. After the attack from Ghouls is faced, Sam forms a new company which you designate as Beta Company. Alpha Company, meanwhile, has lost a character but is still the same company, and still has the effect from Chill Douser following it. At the end of the movement-hazard phase, Beta Company dissolves and Sam rejoins Alpha Company. Once again, the composition of the company has changed but its identity remains the same. And if Alpha Company just moved to the Dead Marshes, the automatic-attack there will be boosted by the effect from Chill Douser should the company attempt to enter the site.
Beta company with Sam still is still considered to have faced the Chill Douser and its effect can be applied to an attack against Sam. When a company splits, both companies are considered to have faced the attacks of the original company. But resource/character effects on the company will need to be divvied up.