Council of Elrond

I have a question about the Balrog as Ringwraith rule:

A BALROG PLAYER
A Balrog player acts as a Ringwraith player. Any card and rules text applying to a Ringwraith also applies to The Balrog (e.g., if a card refers to a Ringwraith, it now applies to “a Ringwraith or The Balrog”).

I understand the if you are playing the Balrog, you may for instance:
Tap your Balrog Avatar, and play Ancient Secrets

But what about if you are playing against a Balrog player.

I don't think that a:
Ringwraith Company = Balrog Company

In turn my question is would the first part of Heedless Revelry be playable against a Balrog Company?

or another way to ask this would be are all instances of:
non-Ringwraith = non-Balrog?

Thanks...

n.b. I am just thinking mathematically
ex. A = 1, this doesn't not mean that non-A = non-1

Better example:

Ringwraith Followers are clearly NOT the same as Balrog Followers...

So, if a card is referring to "Ringwraith" in their singularities on cards, THIS make sense to substitute Balrog for Ringwraith.

But when you start mixing and matching (conjoinging) I don't see how this keeps extending, the above rule.

Thanks again!

rezwits wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:18 am In turn my question is would the first part of Heedless Revelry be playable against a Balrog Company?

It would not be playable against a The Balrog company. I believe the replacement (and Heedless Revelry) refer to the presence of the characters, not player alignment. This interpretation would also suggest that an opponent Balrog wouldn't not allow one to play The Black Council... although METB additionally explicitly prohibits this card.

Well I was thinking in context, because they seem to clarify the opposite by these words:

Playable on a non-Ringwraith company that is not moving. Make a roll (or draw a #) for each untapped non-Wizard character in the company; modify this roll by -2 for hero characters. If the result is greater than the character's mind, the character becomes tapped.

So in the first instance, they are saying:

non-Ringwraith company, what does this prevent? Ringwraiths (plural) from being tapped, because of the special restrictions RW-companies have.
then
non-Wizard character, what does this prevent? the lone, only possible btw, single Wizard from being tapped (with or without other characters in his company.

So to me this card doesn't care, about "Characters being tapped", they are just saying:

No Ringwraiths, No Wizards, No Balrogs, i.e. No Avatars (DC likes etc) can be tapped.

Hence the above post about how:

Ringwraith Followers are NOT the same as Balrog Followers, i.e. each follower of a Balrog does not just require 1 D.I. – a Balrog follower requires the amount of D.I. to control equal to the Mind of that character.

Therefore Ringwraith Companies, are NOT the same as Balrog Companies.
(you can't just substitute Balrog, where ever you see Ringwraith, almost and kinda) but some places have to be checked...
Not to mention Balrog companies can have Non-Ringwraith Characters in that company, ex, Orcs, Trolls, etc...

After further discussion of this topic, I am putting in a request for Klar, Took, or Jabberwock, to create an AVR clarification for this, please. In the form of:

Underline mine:

Playable on a non-Ringwraith company that is not moving. Make a roll (or draw a #) for each untapped non-Wizard and non-Balrog character in the company; modify this roll by -2 for hero characters. If the result is greater than the character's mind, the character becomes tapped. Alternatively, may be revealed as an on-guard card on a company after the successful play of an item, ally, or faction. Tap all untapped non-Balrog, non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard characters in the company.

CoE #115 wrote:(3) Mixed companies, i.e., those including at least one ringwraith character and at least one non-ringwraith character are considered ringwraith companies. Therefore, they cannot be targeted by the first use of Heedless Revelry.

This indicates that the status quo for Heedless Revelry does care about whether the company has any Ringwraiths, independent of whether it has non-Ringwraith characters.

As far as I'm aware, there is nothing like an official definition of "Ringwraith Company" as an entity. MELE has only a couple instances of the phrase, and it seems to casually use it to mean both a company containing Ringwraiths and any company of a Ringwraith player, at different times.

Theo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:59 am

CoE #115 wrote:(3) Mixed companies, i.e., those including at least one ringwraith character and at least one non-ringwraith character are considered ringwraith companies. Therefore, they cannot be targeted by the first use of Heedless Revelry.

This indicates that the status quo for Heedless Revelry does care about whether the company has any Ringwraiths, independent of whether it has non-Ringwraith characters.

As far as I'm aware, there is nothing like an official definition of "Ringwraith Company" as an entity. MELE has only a couple instances of the phrase, and it seems to casually use it to mean both a company containing Ringwraiths and any company of a Ringwraith player, at different times.

Yeah that's true, a RW can be at Dol Guldur and have a Follower that is not a RW, good thing they have that CoE for Heedless.

But in the good ole URD they have:

» A Ringwraith company may not use region
movement.
» A company with the Balrog in it may not
use region movement.

They don't call a company with the Balrog in it as a "Balrog Company."

Why even have that if you just insert Balrog everywhere you see Ringwraith?

Unless they are just clearing up this from the MEBA Insert "Balrog companies can never use starter movement"
Because the fact that that is plural is like wtf?!?

I also think the wording is a little more particular:

a Ringwraith or The Balrog

Ancient Secrets wrote:Tap your Ringraith to discard one hazard permanent-event. Alternatively, during your organization phase, tap your Ringwraith to take up to two resources from your sideboard to your play deck and reshuffle. "'...the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: Too well he knew them all.'"-LotRIII

is equal to:

Ancient Secrets wrote:Tap your Ringwraith or The Balrog to discard one hazard permanent-event. Alternatively, during your organization phase, tap your Ringwraith to take up to two resources from your sideboard to your play deck and reshuffle. "'...the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: Too well he knew them all.'"-LotRIII

so:

Heedless Revelry wrote:Playable on a non-Ringwraith or The Balrog company that is not moving. Make a roll (or draw a #) for each untapped non-Wizard character in the company; modify this roll by -2 for hero characters. If the result is greater than the character's mind, the character becomes tapped. Alternatively, may be revealed as an on-guard card on a company after the successful play of an item, ally, or faction. Tap all untapped non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard characters in the company.

How you want it FRIED or BAKED?? (it just doesn't seem slam it in where-ever) Ancient Secrets DOES

But what's funny is I always wondered about Ancient Secrets because I wonder if the RULING was for cards printed BEFORE the MEBA Decks...

haha Good Night!

rezwits wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:15 am But in the good ole URD they have:

» A Ringwraith company may not use region
movement.
» A company with the Balrog in it may not
use region movement.

Maybe that can be cleaned up in the revised URD, because in my opinion the line about the Balrog is unnecessary - and as we see here, is causing confusion. The Balrog's card itself tells you he can't use region movement. You don't need an entry in a rules document to restate a completely unambiguous statement within a card's text.

yeah true, a friend told me the URD has a lot of errors I disagreed at first, but slowly I have been seeing these nuances...