Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

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kodi
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 12:22 pm

Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by kodi »

Hello everybody. Hi have a question in one concret situation that experimented in last Lure.
Mountains of Shadow
Playable at the end of the organization phase on a company containing a ranger. If the company uses region cards for its site path, tap the ranger to move as if the following pairs of regions were adjacent: Ithilien and Gorgoroth, Ithilien and Nurn, Harondor and Nurn. The company faces an attack at the beginning of its movement/hazard phase: Orcs - 4 strikes with 9 prowess. Otherwise, if the site moved to is in one of the regions listed above, the hazard limit is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 2). Cannot be duplicated on a given company.
Mount Doom
Any company moving to Mount Doom has its hazard limit modified by +2 and hazard creatures may always be played keyed to the site regardless of any other cards played.
1. There is a company with 2 characters.
2. Then in organization phase play Mountains of Shadow to reduce the hazards limit by 2 (to a minimum of2) if the company moves to Gorgoroth.
3. The company moves to Mt Doom. The hazards limit is modified by +2.

The question is what is the hazard limit to this company. Because depending of the order you resolve the modifications is 2 or 4. There are 2 options.

option a
limit 4 = company size (2) - mountains of shadow (0) + mount doom (2)

option b
limit 2 = company size (2) + mount doom (2) - mountains of shadow (2)

Thanks!

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Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
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Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by Konrad Klar »

"Any company moving to Mount Doom has its hazard limit modified by +2"
is an action caused by passive condition (action is +2 to HL, condition is a moving to Mount Doom).

"if the site moved to is in one of the regions listed above, the hazard limit is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 2)" is action governed by rule:
CRF, Turn Sequence, Organization Phase, Choosing a New Site wrote:Effects that are played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site
path of a moving company, create an effect which is not declared until the new site is
revealed. If the site or site path is not of the appropriate type when the effect resolves,
the resource has no effect. If the company has multiple movement/hazard phases on
the same turn, the card applies separately to each phase, having an effect only if the
correct conditions are met.
Order of declaration of such actions is currently not defined by rules.
The following proposal is aimed to solve the problem:
Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

If it will be accepted then it will mean the a resource player will choose an order of declaration of such actions.
Most convenient for him order of declarations would be:
"action from Mountains of Shadow"
"action from Mount Doom"
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

kodi
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 12:22 pm

Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by kodi »

Thank you! very usefull ;)

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the JabberwocK
Council Chairman
Posts: 1154
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am

Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by the JabberwocK »

Here is how a previous NetRep ruled on this, along with his explanation:
NetRep Digest #36-
so he decided (as the hazard player) that Ash Mountains' effect
(lowering the hazard limit by two _with a minimum of two_) comes
before Mount Dooms (increasing it), the count ended up being:
two (one plus two halves), minus zero (Ash Mountains), plus two
(Mount Doom) = FOUR.
is this possible?

*** Ash Mountains creates a passive condition for the turn that
is triggered if you reveal a destination site for that company that
is in a region listed on the card. CRF, Rulings by Term, Passive
Conditions:
Annotation 9: If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a
result of some specific passive condition, this action becomes automatically
the first action declared in the chain of effects to immediately
follow the chain of effects producing the passive condition. The
passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved
in its own chain of effects, or the action is canceled. Note that
actions in the strike sequence follow a different set of rules.

This means that the passive condition is applied after the effects
listed on Mount Doom are resolved. There is no chance for the hazard
player to choose the order because there is no ambiguity in the order.
So, in your case:
1. Play Ash Mountains. Sets up passive condition.
2. Reveal Mount Doom. Mount Doom's +2 resolves. Hazard limit of 4.
3. Ash Mountains is triggered and resolves. Hazard limit of 2.

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Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3354
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by Konrad Klar »

Author does not care about definition of passive condition.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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CDavis7M
Posts: 1639
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:55 pm
"Any company moving to Mount Doom has its hazard limit modified by +2"
is an action caused by passive condition (action is +2 to HL, condition is a moving to Mount Doom).

"if the site moved to is in one of the regions listed above, the hazard limit is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 2)" is action governed by rule:
...
Order of declaration of such actions is currently not defined by rules.
The order is already defined by the rules. The hazard limit reduction from cards played in the organization phase happen first, before other effects. So the hazard limit reduction from Mounts of Shadow happens first and then the hazard limit increase by Mount Doom happens second. In this example with 2 characters, Mountains of Shadow does not reduce the hazard limit because the effect has a minimum of 2. Then Mount Doom will increase the hazard limit by 2. So the company's hazard limit will be 4.

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